I'm Not O.KK
Welcome to I'm Not O.KK, a fresh and engaging podcast where we dive deep into the world of mental health with authenticity, empathy, and a dash of humor. Hosted by two dynamic voices Kimberly Jahns and Kelly Kranz, each episode brings to light aspects of mental health history through storytelling and today's personal stories and triumphs that remind us we're not alone in our struggles.
Every other week we tell a story related to mental health and wellness. With candid conversations we want to dismantle the stigmas surrounding mental health, offering our listeners a safe space to reflect on their own experiences and find comfort in shared stories.
Each episode ends with engaging discussions during the book club portion of our podcast where we dive deep into mental health themes.
As your hosts, we don't just navigate these conversations from a distance; we're right there with you, sharing our battles and breakthroughs. Our goal? To infuse each discussion with laughter and levity, proving that even in our darkest moments, a spark of joy can be found.
I'm Not O.KK is more than just a podcast; it's a community. Whether you're seeking solace, understanding, or just a good laugh amidst the chaos of mental health challenges.
Because when you're here, you're never alone.
I'm Not O.KK
WWI Shell Shock and Mental Illnesses
Kelly tells the story of how Shell Shock came to be during WWI trench warfare and the mental illnesses it caused. We the have our weekly book club discussion about boundaries from chapter 10 of Dr. Nicole LePera's book 'How to Do the Work'.
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Hi, welcome to the I'm Not OKK podcast. My name's Kelly Kranz.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kimberly Welcome Welcome.
Speaker 1:Welcome to our podcast, we're so happy you're here.
Speaker 2:We are singing.
Speaker 1:Well, I just had to listen to our intro, so maybe let's spare them.
Speaker 2:Oh, you mean, our voices aren't good enough to be heard.
Speaker 1:Has our intro ever gotten stuck in your head?
Speaker 2:Well, my partner was singing it the other day like just randomly, I was like whoa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that I think you know. We planned for it to like be like just a temporary intro, but honestly it's grown on me. I me too. Hey there, have you heard the news?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, like it's catchy and then it's like pot. They write rhyme podcast with real blast and I was like, yeah, it's got a podcast it's a real blast yeah like it's eye roll and cringe, but like yeah it's also like crap. This is a bop.
Speaker 1:It's funny. Mental health ladies. It is so silly. Yeah, we, that is totally an AI music. We, we constructed that intro with AI and we were just testing and playing around with it and well, I think we hit the jackpot.
Speaker 2:I know, I know Good for us Fricking, crushing it with AI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Oh man, how was your weekend Great?
Speaker 2:You know spa. We both had spa weekends, you know so it's a nice a nice refresh.
Speaker 1:We synced up. We synced up in spa. Okay, sure, I had a massage. I did as well. Oh, mine was hot rock, mine was the hot stone massage. That's what I fully meant to say.
Speaker 2:Hot rocks, hot rocks. I had hot rocks. I had hot stones as well. It was very luxurious, like I was able to relax and it was nice. It was nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not something that I do often, but when I do, I do it correctly.
Speaker 2:Okay then See, I'm actually when I have the budget for it. I normally go once a month to get a massage. Oh, very healthy, very healthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It actually like okay, so normally it's like a massage, but it actually really helps. Like I have knots in my shoulders and like I can feel them, like try and need it out, and it's just like oh gosh. But then you leave and you're like, oh okay, Like my, my body's feeling better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's nice.
Speaker 1:They're important and they pull a lot of that lactic acid out that you never think about, Like I had the masseuse that I saw. All of a sudden she started pulling at my neck and I was like, oh, she's doing the lactic acid removal. Oh my God, she's doing it. It hurts but it feels good. I had an acupuncture. A guy used to see for acupuncture.
Speaker 1:He used to do that. I used to see him for depression. I've tried all sorts of things. You truly have. I mean I've, I've stuck needles in my eyes. Are you serious? Well, no, but I mean, you know oh well, it's like you know, I go to acupuncture. I basically stuck needles in my eyes to cure my depression, but no, like in your ears they do it in your ears kind of feels really good well, they're like so fine they are.
Speaker 1:But every now and then you can feel them like. When they get in like a, when they go right in between your pointer finger and your thumb, in like that mushy spot, there's like a no pressure point there and they go right in there. You can feel it no thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's big feels, it's.
Speaker 2:it doesn't feel too nice, but it's you know, have you ever been to an allergist?
Speaker 1:Yes, a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Okay, cause when you said needles, I was like needles, needles. I had an. I had an allergist appointment because I had like symptoms or whatever they're like. What are you allergic to? And so have you ever had this test?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like kind of like a panel they put on you with like holes and like, and then you come out and you have like a you've got your trigger box, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:My entire back. He like took a picture of my back so I could see it. And it was just like because they like I think they just scratch your back, like with the needles or something, and then put the allergen so they can see, like how your body reacts, and like I was allergic to dust or something. But I'm just just like this is the weirdest. It seems so archaic, but like also genius. Like oh, let's just literally scratch your back and then like rub stuff like some old school scratch and sniff allergy test.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this smells like grass on your back. How is this? Are you allergic to fresh grass? How's that hay fever?
Speaker 2:yeah basically I was like, oh my gosh, I could do this at home. But like obviously I couldn't but kind of you know.
Speaker 1:So you found out you're allergic to dust. Yeah, that's like, and I bet you're doing nothing about it no, this was a so many years ago.
Speaker 2:Like so many, I'm probably allergic to more stuff now.
Speaker 1:Whatever, well, allergies, like they change, they can change, like they can, they can change. Remember my family. We ran a cat rescue out of our garage kind of up in.
Speaker 1:Long Island when we were in Long Island. So there was cats in the garage, we had cats in the house, you know, just lots of cats around. I went to college my first semester. I came back, you know, during the winter I could not breathe in the house. I could not breathe. It was so bad. I was crying. I had to step outside and stand outside and I was like what is going on that I can't breathe in the house?
Speaker 1:And then that is when I went and I got tested again. They were like well, you're allergic to dogs and cats and I'm like that makes no sense. I've lived my whole life with dogs and cats. So they wanted me to take allergy shots back at college. But they were also telling me the way he explained allergy shots to me is like you build up a tolerance so you can build up a tolerance around the animal, or you build up a tolerance around the shot. I was like I'll just build up a tolerance around the animals. I mean, I'm not going to go to the nurse's office at college with a fricking vial and be like, hey, can you give me this shot? It was, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it was too complicated. It's funny that you say that same exact thing happened to me because I went away to college and I can't cause I was, I've always been raised with dogs came home for the summer terrible allergies, sniffing eyes, watering, stuffy, and it's. I joke because, like I found out, I was allergic to you know, dander or whatever. And instead of like, oh, like, maybe we not that my parents would ever get rid of their dogs, but like there wasn't anything the dogs needed to do, it was like, okay, you need to get a shot. Like, maybe you just don't hang out around them as much. It was like I had to make the change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I?
Speaker 2:happily do. I love animals. But, I was just like wait, where's the priority? Here, Wait, give the dog a bath.
Speaker 1:Let's just try that. Just bathe the dog. Yeah, put a jacket on the dog Like put a jacket on the dog like come on, so animals do rule our world. But they do. They definitely do, oh, without a doubt. So, honey, two degrees, how'd it go?
Speaker 2:it actually went fantastic boundaries with my phone. Yeah, that's what you said last week boundaries with the phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what you said last week Boundaries with a phone.
Speaker 2:So I got I think I got an app and it alerts me. Like I put time limits for certain apps and it alerts me when it goes over. I can kind of like mute the alarm, yeah, but at least I've only done that. I think once, but it at least lets me know. So I'm like, oh crap, I just spent 45 minutes on this. You know, I think once, but it at least lets me know. So I'm like, oh crap, I just spent 45 minutes on this. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:So pretty proud of myself, I think we're all wondering what the time limit is you put on that email of yours?
Speaker 2:Did I put a time limit on my email? I don't think I did.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh. So the biggest culprit, the biggest culprit.
Speaker 2:No, how can I? You cannot put a time limit on my professional life, Kelly.
Speaker 1:Didn't you at least stop it between certain time frames, or did you let it go again?
Speaker 2:No, I don't get no. Well, I try to not get notified, like in the evening time, like I told you, because my next two degrees look at this transition. Like I told you, because my next two degrees look at this transition, my next two degrees is going to be trying to shut off my like doing work after like five or six.
Speaker 1:How long do you usually go for? After five or six.
Speaker 2:On and off until, like, I fall asleep. Why? Because it's an addiction.
Speaker 1:I like to like Slack messages emails like let me be up on what's happening. No one else is up working at that time when you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, who do you think is sending me these emails and Slack messages? Other people, I'm not going to say Anyway. So that's my two degrees. For my next thing, it's going to be setting working hours for myself.
Speaker 1:like to shut off hours, don't? That's your time, that's you, that's your time. That's like in a new term I'm saying that's like a time that's your time to feed your soul and stop being on someone else's dime, even if it's, even if it's yours, even if it's like it could be me and you, like, you know, doing our podcast and we could be like this, could, who knows. But even then, so it'd be like okay, like these are our non-business hours and we're not going to do talk podcast anything during these hours, because now we are, you know, human beings with other interests. Again, yeah, but that's.
Speaker 2:It's hard when you work remotely or you don't have set hours. It really is yeah, yeah, so but yeah, that's good advice, kelly, Good advice, what's your? How did you do on your two degrees?
Speaker 1:I actually did amazing on my two degrees. My two degrees was to take my medication as it was prescribed, specifically my sleeping medication, and it is something that I usually don't do because self-sabotage is so much fun. This weekend I went hiking. It was my birthday weekend, so I went hiking for the weekend and I brought all my medicines with me and since I was away, I took my pills every night to fall asleep, which is something I usually do when I'm away, because I'm in a different area and I'm in bed and it's just like I don't know why I just do it when I'm away but not home. So when I was, I was like, oh my gosh, I've actually done this like four nights in a row. I came home, I continued to do it, like I did it last night. So I'm like, all right, like I'm back on, I'm taking my meds correctly again, which is important. It's always important to take your meds correctly, especially when, like your doctors tell you, sleep is one of the biggest things that you need. So that is, yeah, I want to keep doing that, moving forward.
Speaker 1:And then I haven't really given much thought into my next two degrees. I mean, I still want to like go back to my roots. I want to make sure I take Effie out like for a walk. That's still something that I haven't really gotten into the routine of. If I could just do that, like get used to doing that twice a week, I'd love that. I did my super manic planting. I need to get back out there and deadhead everything. It looks like some things are thriving while some things are like hey, help me out. I feel that, but I think my two degrees shift is going to be a little existential. I want to take more proactive measures to feed my soul, like something I said earlier, like do things for me, watch things for me.
Speaker 2:You know just- so basically be selfish.
Speaker 1:I was just gonna say that, yes, be selfish and being selfish is we all know, or we all should know it's not terrible. It's not terrible to be selfish, it's actually putting up a boundary. I was thinking the same thing. I know. I know, because we're discussing that later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the chapter yeah, and I'm in a period in my life right now where it's like you know, I could take the time to do things that build me back up and put me back together. So that's my two degrees is just going to be to not be afraid of that, to not hide from that, to be like, oh, I want to go see my niece play softball game, like that brings me joy, like let's not hide from that, let's go fill my soul and let's go do that on a Monday night, like you know what I mean. So, yeah, it's a little. Yeah, that's my two degrees basically.
Speaker 2:Love it.
Speaker 1:I love that you love it, you're so good to me Related to finger guns.
Speaker 2:right now You're finger gunning.
Speaker 1:So I'm excited to hear your story and I'm excited to tell it. So I kind of took a page out of your book. Today Sounds like I said I took a page out of your yearbook. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Do you still have your?
Speaker 1:yearbook? Of course, absolutely, I think I do too. Somewhere I digress, yeah. So today my story is on shell shock, which came from World War I, so what is shell shock?
Speaker 2:vaguely know, but like specifically, or are you going to get into it?
Speaker 1:oh, I'm going to get into all sorts of things. Okay, I'm going to get I'm going to get into it. We're going to talk all sorts of things. We got this, we're going. You ready, you buckled in, you strapped oh, I am so buckled in. Okay, you got a picnic basket. I don't where's this metaphor going? Why?
Speaker 2:am I buckled in? Okay, you got a picnic basket. I don't where's this metaphor going. Why am I buckled in with the picnic basket?
Speaker 1:oh, all right, sit sit tight, pretty okay god bless us on this journey, so getting into it.
Speaker 1:the horrors of trench warfare during world war one left an indebitable mark on the soldiers who endured it. The unprecedented horrors of trench warfare and constant bombardment by artillery shells created extremely stressful and traumatic conditions for soldiers. The loud explosions, the threat of death, witnessing comrades being killed or mutilated, living in squalid trench conditions for months this all took a severe psychological toll. Many soldiers were exposed to concussive blast forces from exploding shells, which was initially thought to cause physical brain damage and neurological symptoms like amnesia, paralysis and loss of senses. The sheer scale of the duration of World War I, with battles dragging on for months and years, subjected soldiers to prolonged extreme stress and trauma beyond what they could psychologically endure. Beyond the physical wounds inflicted by the bullets and the shrapnel, many of the combatants suffered from a condition then known as shell shock, a psychological trauma that manifested in various forms, from anxiety and dissociation to flashbacks and nightmares.
Speaker 1:This phenomenon, initially misunderstood and stigmatized, would ultimately challenge societal perceptions of mental health and pave the way for greater awareness and treatment. Does that answer your question? Yes, it does. So let's get historical together. At the outset of World War I, mental illness was wildly stigmatized. Who would have thought, and the concept of psychological trauma was poorly understood. Within military ranks and society at large, the prevailing attitude was one of dismissal, with soldiers exhibiting symptoms of shell shock, often accused of being a coward or punished for their perceived weakness. However, as the war dragged on and the number of cases mounted, it became increasingly evident that this was a genuine and widespread phenomenon that could no longer be ignored.
Speaker 2:These men were coming and being told go home home that they had no treatment for being punished like, so they were sent home once they were yeah, somewhere, somewhere, dismissed.
Speaker 1:I did read and I did read in something. Oh, by the way, the sources for this story will be in the show notes. I am notorious for doing that.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay they would be punished.
Speaker 1:they'd be kicked.
Speaker 2:They'd be kicked out Part of me is like, oh, you could go home so you don't get killed, or like, get worse stuff happen to you? And I have no military experience, but I think there is like you don't want to leave your men behind, like your troop or, you know, your squad behind, and then also just the like honor of fighting for your country and then being sent home. That's sad.
Speaker 1:They're straight up calling them cowards. Like what are you? You can't handle it. Like you're being punished, you can't handle it. Until they realized that this was actually a thing, this is actually a phenomenon.
Speaker 2:Like more and more cases piled on. It's like, oh God, now what are we going to do with this? Yeah, my gosh, that's just so sad. It's like you're already going through so much and then you're like oh great, and now nobody believes me and people think I'm a coward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're fighting for your country, like you're already, not a coward Like this trench warfare sounds horrifying.
Speaker 2:You said was this World War I or World?
Speaker 1:War II. Yeah, we're in World War I right now. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Because I was like I don't think there was trench war. Yeah, my gosh Already dealing. So my education. I remember when you said like trench warfare, trench foot.
Speaker 1:Remember reading about that?
Speaker 2:No, I don't remember that oh gosh, now I'm gonna probably say it wrong, but trench foot, I think, is where, because they were like in standing water, so people's feet would like rot oh, trench foot, okay, okay yeah, so like dealing with so much stuff and then like gosh dang yeah, they say the conditions in the trenches were particularly conducive to psychological trauma Soldiers.
Speaker 1:They endured the constant bombardment. They lived in squalor conditions. Like I said earlier, they witnessed the death of the comrades on a regular basis. So the stress and the horror of this environment was just the main toll, just ripped their mental wellbeing to shreds.
Speaker 2:That's just terrible and that's where it's sad, because mental illness has been so misunderstood, or mental health in general, that, like how many people have suffered throughout history, normally silently, because people are like this isn't real and it's like, okay, veterans suffer silently back in the day when they come back.
Speaker 1:Came back, they didn't want to show a sign of weakness. There's like like none of those programs were none of our vet programs were put in place. Yet I mean the vet programs we have today. Some are amazing and some are still fucking like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not the greatest like they really you'd think they deserve such great, they should deserve such great treatment. And it's like okay, you just fought you for your country and your country's like okay, we don't care about you anymore. Like what the heck? So sad yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's garbage, it's absolutely garbage. They each deserve a huge hug.
Speaker 2:Okay, they deserve more than that. But yes, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:But a huge hug for me. I'm saying, like, what can I do? I can give a hug.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure all of them want your hug, but okay.
Speaker 1:Oh funny. So the symptoms of shell shock varied, but common experiences included flashbacks to traumatic events, nightmares, emotional numbness and an inability to function normally. Soldiers grappled with the horrors they had witnessed, from the constant threat of death to the sight of the mutilated bodies and the deafening roar of artillery fire. Wilford Owen, a renowned World War I poet who served on the Western Front, captured the haunting reality of shell shock in his poem Mental Cases. I'm going to read the poem for you now, kimberly. I'm excited. These are men whose minds the dead have ravished Memory fingers in their hair, of murders, multitudinous murders, they once witnessed. Oh, that's the poem.
Speaker 2:That's sad, that's upsetting.
Speaker 1:Also, along with the symptoms, some soldiers experienced associative episodes where they would become detached from reality and unable to process their surroundings. Others suffered from debilitating anxiety and panic attacks, rendering them incapable of performing their duties them incapable of performing their duties.
Speaker 2:I just think about so, like obviously this affects the person. But then you think about their family, like coming home and you're so like imagine the kids are so excited to see their dad and then their dad is still basically at war just like in his own head, and how lonely that must feel, especially with like no support from the army. Your family doesn't know the things you've witnessed like oh can't even fathom it, can't even know them it.
Speaker 1:And now it's being written about in poems, like it's becoming mainstream, like shell shock is becoming something that, like people are learning about or understanding actually happens. Maybe not necessarily learning about, but now it's go into some treatment and responses. Initially, the military establishment struggled to comprehend and address shell shock. Some soldiers were court-martialed or subjected to harsh punishments for their perceived lack of fortitude, like we mentioned earlier. However, as the war progressed and the number of cases increased, it became clear that a more compassionate and scientific approach was needed. Pioneering efforts by psychiatrists like Dr William Rivers and Craig Lockhart War Hospital in Scotland paved the way for more evidence-based approaches to treating psychological trauma. Rivers recognized the validity of shell shock and advocated for the humane treatment, employing techniques such as hypnosis, psychoanalysis and rest therapy to help soldiers confront and process their traumatic experiences. Other medical professionals, such as Dr Louis Yelland at the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery in London, took a more controversial approach, using electroshock therapy and other harsh methods in attempt to cure shell shock.
Speaker 1:The cultural impact of shell shock. While the prevalence of shell shock during World War, I challenged traditional notions of masculinity and stoicism, forcing society to confront the reality of psychological trauma and its impact on even the bravest of soldiers is afflicted, using their works to raise awareness and advocate for greater understanding. Sassoon's poem Survivors captures the haunted existence of those grappling with shell shock. I'm going to read you another poem. Are you ready for it? I'm ready. No cheering nor welcome greeted them curled in blankets, too tired to keep their eyes awake. The cultural impact of shell shock extended beyond literature, as artists and filmmakers also explored the theme of psychological trauma in their works, reflecting the societal shift in attitudes towards mental health. Real, it brings it into people's living rooms and it's just like oh yeah, that makes sense. If I was there, I would be like fuck all, get me the fuck out too, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's just education. If you don't know about it, you're like, okay, why is that person having a panic attack? This is weird, that person's strange. And then you're like, oh, they went to war and war is traumatic. Oh, they're dealing with that. I think it's all just a matter of education. The farther the education spreads, the more accepting people are of. I don't want to say everything, but like this you know their mental health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, you're exactly right. That's how it should work anyway. That's how it's supposed to work. You get educated about something. You can understand something, wow.
Speaker 2:Who would have thought facts equal knowledge? No, who would have thought that?
Speaker 1:Well. The experience of World War I soldiers laid the foundation for our modern understanding of PTSD, which we all know post-traumatic stress disorder and the importance of Shell Shock serves as a reminder of the enduring psychological toll of warfare and the need for continued efforts to improve treatment and support systems. In recent years, there has been a renewed focus on addressing the mental health challenges faced by veterans, with initiatives aimed at increasing access to counseling, therapy and other resources. However, stigma and barriers to seeking help persist, underscoring the importance of ongoing education and awareness campaigns. Omg, did you just say that or did you just say that? I just said that.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, she just said that. So, looking back on all this, contemporary veterans and mental health professionals acknowledge the parallels between shell shock and modern combat related ptsd, emphasizing the importance of storytelling and sharing experiences to break down stigma and promote the healing. As one veteran remarked, the more we talk about it, the more we can understand and support those who've been through the unimaginable. Mental health professionals also stress the need for early intervention and comprehensive support systems to address the unique challenges faced by veterans transitioning back to civilian life by learning from the lessons of the past and continuing to destigmatize mental health issues we can better serve those who have sacrificed so much in service to their countries and she takes a bow.
Speaker 2:Okay, when you said World War I, because trench warfare once again it made me think of. Have you ever heard that story where I think it was like Christmas Eve or something and there was like a pause in fighting and the two sides like? This is just one area like just one area.
Speaker 2:And like they were like celebrating like each in ago, but they like ended up coming together, like the two sides coming together, and they like played soccer together and celebrated together and all this stuff. And then when, like their break or their pause stopped, neither side was really willing to like fight because they knew who was on the other side. So they had to like break up the troops to like different places because they didn't want to like fight the people they knew. And I was like dang, that's that like hits home where it's like oh crap, If you knew the other person, you realize like oh wait, we're all humans person.
Speaker 1:You realize like, oh wait, we're all humans. Yeah, I feel like it. Yeah, they're human beings. It's not really something to take a life of another human being. The magnitude of that I think most people aren't prepared for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like, just going back to what you said, where it is, it's like once you know the experience or see the experience, and just you've been through it and like how can I? Just it's upsetting that people don't see that as like oh wait, there might be trauma there or there might be something there.
Speaker 1:They're just like no, he went away and now he's scared. That's what it was. Yeah, Like he just wants to leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know that. That that's but granted. In this day and age we know about mental health. So if you only knew about physical health and you're like, okay, I can do this, why can't he?
Speaker 1:I don't know that's it's it, don't you think it's kind of odd? Like, over time, like like when you, it just kind of seems like we get our society views ourselves more and more like humans. It's like, did they forget? Like what were we doing in the 1800s? Were we not humans? Like no, I know I was a piece of cattle like you could sell me off to whoever. Like it's just like. It's just very like, it's very interesting. Like we had like three-year-old chimney sweeps. Like like, that's not chimney kelly obviously yeah, that's the whole point.
Speaker 1:They could fit into the chimney, but like these, it's not like they were out there with their dad doing the chimney sweep, it was just like three-year-old chimney sweep. Like I just like. Like why did we like how? I it's just. How did we not know we were human beings who had no, was nobody just talking. Nobody wanted to bring up that like hey, I don't. This is hard for me as a three-year-old. You have to remember who ruled the world.
Speaker 2:It was mostly straight white men, so like if you were not a straight white, middle-aged man.
Speaker 1:Your voice really didn't matter, so like didn't speak up and they can't show and they didn't show any signs of weakness. Because how could that? But like if you're a three-year-old chimney sweep.
Speaker 2:They're like. I don't want to be a chimney sweep. I have, like, his black lung. No, that's from mining, where it's just like I don't want to be a chimney sweep. I feel sick. Blah, blah, blah. They're like.
Speaker 1:I don't care, sweep my chimney, I have money. Yeah, I couldn't imagine getting a child to sweep my chimney today. Get on my roof and be that professional. Be so professional, like, bring his own. I don't know. I'm done. I'm done with that, okay.
Speaker 2:Quick callback to what I was saying, because I Googled it, because I didn't want to, because sometimes it's weird, but I have dreams that I think are facts. So I was like, oh my gosh, am I talking about a dream I had that I thought was a fact? No, it's real. It's called the Christmas Truce. It's an unofficial and impromptu ceasefire that occurred along the western front during World War. I was not universally observed nor sanctioned by either side, but the guns fell silent. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah I don't even know what.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, this is all just so sad.
Speaker 1:These photos like don't look at the photos the photos get sad. The photos make me sad oh gosh, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So basically here. So as morning broke, on Christmas Day, German soldiers emerged from their trenches waving their arms to demonstrate that they had no ill intent. When it became clear that they were not carrying weapons, British soldiers soon joined them, meeting in no man's land to socialize and exchange gifts.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's wild. Yeah, I'm surprised I haven't made a movie about that yet.
Speaker 2:There probably. I almost guarantee there is. There probably is right, I almost guarantee.
Speaker 1:They always make. They make good war movies about like one-off stories that you never hear about.
Speaker 2:Christmas Truce movie. Yep Joy Noel 2005 war drama film.
Speaker 1:It needs to be remade, sounds terrible.
Speaker 2:I just read you the Okay, whatever, well, great story Kelly. Thanks girl. Kind of sad, but you know mental health can be very sad. They had to go through it so we could understand PTSD.
Speaker 1:I just wish that we had way more compassion in the beginning, from the start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's the world. The world needs more compassion. Yeah, yes, it does. Okay, so let's jump into the book, shall we? Yeah, chapter 10, boundaries in how to Do the Work by Dr Nicole Lepera. Thoughts on this chapter. Oh man.
Speaker 1:Boundaries in how to Do the Work by Dr Nicole Lepera. Thoughts on this chapter. Oh man, boundaries. She says it's an important chapter, probably the most important one in the book, based on everything that we've read so far.
Speaker 2:Well yeah. So if you're going to buy and read this book, just read chapter 10. Just kidding, read the whole book.
Speaker 1:Read the whole thing but definitely like 8, 9, 10. Like maybe seven, six, five, four.
Speaker 2:Maybe just chapters one through 13.
Speaker 1:Something like that. But yeah, so you know, as always in the beginning of her story she gives an example of a patient, of hers and what they're going through. And then I love the emotional dumping through. And then I love the emotional dumping, just like when someone can just take all their emotions and dump them at your footstep, even though you're just like hey, guess what, I just want a 5K and they won't even fucking acknowledge it.
Speaker 1:They'll just be like yeah, well, my sneak blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they just start dumping on you.
Speaker 2:Yes, I hate that so much. I have people in my life where they'll be like, oh, how are you doing? And I know they don't care, so I'll just be like you know I'm doing fine, you know this, and that'm like maybe I need more boundaries, but like hours, hours talking about them and I have to, consciously, after I leave that conversation, I have to be like those are not my problems, I cannot help. This is her thing to do and take on.
Speaker 1:Is it one of the sucks your energy thing? Yes, drains your energy. It's not reciprocated. It's not like a reciprocated thing Like you think. If you're nice and you're listening, then yeah, I know you. So I know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Are you talking about the different types of boundaries?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm talking about the different types of boundaries, but mostly there is the oh. Here it is. Niceness is based on the following inaccurate formula If I please others, then others will, like me, love me, shower me with approval and everything else I want. This is Dr Aziz Gazapura. He calls it the niceness cage.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and that's learning to say no, not being so compliant all the time, is an important part of reclaiming yourself. Learning to say no is often the kindest thing you could do for yourself and those you love. And not to fall into the niceness cage which is, if I'm nice, then I'll get this, that and the other thing, cause that's not. That's not always true. Like I've been nice to people before and I guess it depends on what Really I don't answer. It really depends on your boundary, because it's like well, I have enough energy for this person in my life where I could be nice and let them just emotionally dump and that's fine. That's my boundary. I know that that's what they're going to do. I know I'm not going to get anything out of it, but I still love this human being.
Speaker 2:That, technically, is a boundary, but I know she says in here like sometimes people do that, but then they need to like come out of it, like we all have those days where, like venting I know she talks about venting in here yeah, where is that?
Speaker 1:Because that's good Cause. She says there's a difference between venting and emotional dumping.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I think it still wouldn't be healthy with emotional dumping. So here, emotional dumping is the spilling of emotional issues onto a person without being empathetic to their emotional state. Where venting has positive associations, it revolves around one singular topic, helps with stress relief and is often geared towards a productive outcome. Emotional dumping, by contrast, involves the airing of negative, circular and obsessive thoughts. So I think, like if you talk about oh, my cousin really annoyed me because she didn't, you know, pick up her book on time, yeah, Fucking cousin I know Like this is me coming, I'd be terrible.
Speaker 2:At improv I'd be like, oh me coming, I'd be terrible at improv, I'd be like you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1:The dog jumped over the log.
Speaker 2:No, but it's like okay, then you like I'm just complaining about that, you know how can I create, like make a better outcome next time. Like you know, maybe next time I leave it on my porch so I don't even have to deal with her, you know, picking it up or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Where emotional dumping would just be okay. I'm not checking in with you, I'm just like my cousin sucks, my life sucks, this all sucks. You know, it's just like a lot of negativity and it's kind of funny like emotional dumping. I read in a different book or heard maybe it was a podcast. But I try and ask because my family, we talk about mental health a lot. I try and ask because I go to my mom with a lot of stuff and I go to her and be like okay, do you have the capacity? Or I don't say that exactly, but I'm like can I talk to you about this? Because sometimes people aren't in the emotional place to take on more. They're dealing with their own stuff. They either don't have the energy to be empathetic and open up or they don't want to take it on. And I think that's something else where venting. You talk to the person. You're like, hey, can I vent for a?
Speaker 1:second, the second I read venting, I was like, oh me, and you do that shit nonstop. And then I liked an emotional dumping and I was like maybe we engaged in that like once or twice, just like ruminated on something for a little bit because. I felt good, but that's definitely not the basis. It's we vent more, we vent yes. We don't we don't, we don't dump.
Speaker 2:And the thing is normally, by us asking how the other person is doing, we almost in that ask for permission, like, if I'm like, oh Kelly, how are you doing? And I'm like, okay, I'm having a terrible day, like it's just a rough day, you know, whatever, I'm not going to be like same, let me tell you about you, xyz. So I think in our venting we also unconsciously like, ask for or give approval, to be like please vent like that's a good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I believe I've actually even said that. I've said please vent, tell me yeah tell me the gossip.
Speaker 2:Tell me the tea. What is it? It who's sipping? Yeah, okay, okay, isn't it spilling? You sip the tea.
Speaker 1:Well, I wanted to go with sipping and then you could have gone. I'm spilling, but you didn't want to play off me. You know what?
Speaker 2:Once again, I this isn't, I'm sorry. When did I join an improv troupe?
Speaker 1:Gosh.
Speaker 2:I'll emotionally dump gosh.
Speaker 1:I'll don't get paid for that on your front door later okay I'll just text you at like midnight, just a bunch emotionally dumping. You dumped me in that podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, guess what I have kimberly I have uh blockers now on my stuff, so I will not get that till the morning, so that's a test.
Speaker 1:I'll send it to your email. I know that shit ain't blocked. Oh gosh, please don't no.
Speaker 2:But going back to boundaries, one thing it was almost like a rude awakening because she describes rigid, loose and flexible boundaries. I read loose boundaries and I was like, oh crap, that's a hundred percent me Like. I read each bullet I was like, okay, yes.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay, wait, you're loose boundaries. Where's the page? Why can't I find it? Page 185.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's because we passed it so like loose boundaries, are engages in compulsive people pleasing. Yeah, define self-worth by the opinions of others, absolutely. Has a general inability to say no Consistently over shares private information. Is a chronic fixer, helper, saver, rescuer. Well, I was wondering that I'm like I share private information with my like friends.
Speaker 1:You do not overshare. You do not.
Speaker 2:I can tell you that you do not overshare Because as I get to know you, like little by little, like you know, I've heard things and I'm like gift that you could unwrap in a non-sexual way in a friendship way. How?
Speaker 1:fun Because. So now, now tell me if I'm wrong. I put myself down as flexible. What, okay, please explain. Um, okay, please explain, okay. So here's flexible, is aware of values, is aware of, and values, own thoughts, opinions and beliefs. Knows how to communicate needs to others. Through years of therapy, I kind of know how to do that. Now, this one I put a star next to shares personal information appropriately.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no no, no, no no, mine is, shares it whenever I want and it's consistently overshared. Okay, that's, it's always tmi, that's that one's wrong. But I think I'm consistently able to say no, no, I'm not so, I just didn't fit all of them like you fit like, and well, I'm able to get others to express themselves, but not I don't. I, I can, can regulate my emotions as much as my meds allow me to. Okay, it says I should be able to regulate my emotions, allowing others to express themselves. So, help me, where am I?
Speaker 2:I mean, I want you to believe you're flexible. Oh fuck, but maybe it's just because I associate. You know, if we had good boundaries I'm not sure we'd be doing this podcast. But like, okay, for rigid has few intimate close relationships.
Speaker 2:No, has a chronic fear of rejection. I think this one overall has difficulty asking for help. I know I have. That too is fiercely private, so I just think, uh, I mean it is. It is hard to say because I'm not with you like in person, daily seeing your activities, but I feel like to a certain degree people pleasing yes, wait, or you say no, but not in a boundary way, more like in a. I just don't want to do it way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not in the boundary way, you're right yeah, so like there might not be any boundary, you created where you're like no.
Speaker 1:I do. I did. I do have an example of one, but I like that. That's a good point because that points. It's like that is true. That's not what it is, but I do have an example of one.
Speaker 1:Someone that I know requests money on a regular basis and from the world when she falls on hard times. I would help her out from time to time and I said I'd always do it until she didn't pay me back. And she didn't, and that was my, that was my set boundary. I was like I'll always do it until she doesn't pay me back. And she didn't pay me back, so I didn't talk to her. I was done sending her money. I didn't want to have a conversation about where the money was or anything like that. I was like I knew. I was like I'm giving this what's like $20. I was like there you go. And anytime I gave her something. I never expected to see it, but my boundary was if I don't see it back, that's it. We're done. There's no need for me to help you with your struggle anymore. Just help yourself, like I've been telling you for fucking four years.
Speaker 2:But is that a proper boundary if you didn't tell her?
Speaker 1:Well, it's my boundary, so does she need to know? Like, oh, I set up a boundary that says that if you don't pay me back, then I'm not going to do this, because I just didn't. It serves me. I was like I'm not going to engage in this behavior anymore. Like, if she doesn't want to pay me back, after you know I've helped her kids out and this and that, and that's fine, like then, then we're done with this little exchange. Like you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a good point. So, yes, that is a boundary. I just remember her reading like telling people boundaries, but she said, like you don't need to tell the person that it's a boundary, need to tell the person that it's a boundary. At least, I don't believe. So yeah, you can just say sometimes it's not realistic to have an active conversation about the boundary and you can communicate your new limit without having a preemptive conversation. And then she has some prompts I wish you could. Now isn't a good time. I'm not comfortable with that, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, so that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good example of a boundary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's one that I saw. So everyone's like why are you giving her money? I was like no, no, no, I'm not giving her money. And I was like I'm floating her money to get to the next paycheck because she's got like four kids and her life's in shambles and not my life. I'm not enmeshed with it, I don't get involved with it. I don't get involved with it. But if I could help from afar and give your kids Christmas presents and things like that, like you know I'll help. So, yeah, the money, the money didn't come back. No more, not a mess.
Speaker 2:Well, good for setting a boundary and keeping to it. I think that's. This is something that I really realized, where I'm like crap, I have like no boundaries, like I'm just like let's just ebb and flow and like I'll listen to these opinions and maybe I'll take them on. And then I met with my therapist. It's always, it's always humbling, going to my therapist. She's a great therapist, very nice, but like sometimes she'll just say things and I'm like, oh yeah, crap, like you're absolutely right and it's just it's. It sucks where I was saying how you know, I take on other people's opinions and I almost see them as facts and that's not good, because then I'm not being my authentic self, I'm taking on somebody else's opinion and then I'm living a life that isn't mine.
Speaker 1:That's so weird Cause? I don't weird because I don't see you do that. I don't see you take. I mean, maybe you might like define yourself a little bit by what you hear, but I don't. You've always been Kimberly.
Speaker 2:Am I Kimberly or am I just a conglomeration of your opinions, everybody's opinions around me? Yeah, like, at least mentally, maybe sometimes I I mean, I still make my own decisions and like live the life kind of I'd like to live. But there's certain things that my parents say that make me feel bad or, you know, make me think differently about something. And my therapist is like, take that in, but you need to learn to filter. You need to learn to take those opinions in, look at them just as like a statement like it's, you know their opinion and then filter. Will you take it? Is it true? Maybe there's some truth to it, you know, maybe adapt, maybe not, maybe you just throw it in the garbage. So that is my biggest difficulty. And it's so hard to have boundaries about other people's opinions, especially because I'm the people pleaser, I get my value externally it's it's hard, it's hard to make that switch.
Speaker 1:Ma I've never been a people pleaser, I think I.
Speaker 2:I think Lucky.
Speaker 1:I don't think, do I do I come up as a people, pleaser, do I do? I mean, you've worked with me, you're doing this with me nice like.
Speaker 2:You're nice, you're cordial, polite, you know what you stick up for yourself. So not saying that that's not a people pleaser move.
Speaker 1:But I no, it's definitely a.
Speaker 2:My mouth runs a little bit yeah, but also you stick up for your thoughts and feelings and there's value in that where I don't necessarily do that and sometimes it bites me. So I don't think you're a large people pleaser. I think you live pretty authentically to your feelings. But that's just from an outsider perspective. What do I know? I'm mentally ill too, the blind leading the blind here.
Speaker 1:Kelly, I know I'll hold onto the rope. I'm following you.
Speaker 2:What rope?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Blind. You said you're leading the blind. I'm holding onto the rope.
Speaker 2:You've heard that phrase.
Speaker 1:Right the blind leading the blind, yeah, and I always just picture rope wrapped around their waists, between them, so like they lead each other instead of holding hands with sticks. With sticks, well, the blind stick, the blind cane, the cane, yes, the cane yeah, I see more of like some ropes course building opportunity like that's what comes to mind for me like some like team building ropes course opportunity of the blind not being able to leave the blind.
Speaker 2:I love your visualizations because I just see like like two people just like trying to get around and not being able to help the other person.
Speaker 1:I have a whole team strapped up ready to leave each other.
Speaker 2:You're like they have names, they have backstories.
Speaker 1:Go on, samuel, you got this yeah.
Speaker 2:By word Anything else from the chapter. Otherwise, I thought it was a good chapter. It's a chapter that you may want to reread and reread, just to intake all of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's some examples here. So here are a few examples of crossed boundaries by type. We have three boundary types physical, mental, emotional and resource. So here are the examples of how they are crossed. So physical your mother makes jokes about other women's weight Change needed you want her to stop. Mental emotional a friend often emotionally dumps about her ex-boyfriend. Oh my God, fuck those girls. Like I'm not in high school anymore, I stopped caring when I was in college. You think I give a shit at 35? Do you think I fucking care?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you're 35.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did. I just had a birthday. What's good. Happy birthday, kelly. Thank you, kimberly. So yeah, a friend emotionally dumps about her ex-boyfriends. The change needed. You want a more reciprocal relationship. So it's like bitch, stop talking about your ex all the time. Why don't you ask me how my day was's what? That is okay, maybe nicer, but sure no, it's so. And they're so annoying when they talk about that because you know the girl going in there. She's already so peeved off that all she does is talk about the ex-boyfriend.
Speaker 1:But I almost you know what in this scenario that girl is now sleeping with the other girl's ex-boyfriend. That's how mad she is.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, how did this turn so?
Speaker 1:quickly. The boundaries weren't set for the second girl. She had no boundaries.
Speaker 2:I don't think she has a moral compass either, good heavens.
Speaker 1:And here's another one Resource this is the last one A coworker insists on taking his meal with you on every lunch break. The change needed you want some alone time. So it's essentially what's happening and the change that you need to get that to stop. And then that's where you set the boundary and some things you could say to establish boundaries. This isn't doable for me. I'm not comfortable with that. I wish I could.
Speaker 1:Now isn't a good time. Oh, I like that. Hey, do you want? Comfortable with that? I wish I could. Now isn't a good time. Oh, I like that. Hey, do you want to hang out? I wish I could. Now's not a good time, oh, or even better, it's like oh, you want to do a phone call? No, well, all my friends live far away from me. So it's always like do you want to do a phone call? All I wish I could. Now isn't a good time. Oh, wow, thanks for the offer.
Speaker 1:Slash invite Thought, though that isn't something I can do right now. And then one is I will have to get back to you on that, but you know, hopefully you don't ghost them and you actually come back with an answer. It doesn't say that that's just advice from me. But those are some prompts to establish a boundary with just a mere sentence. I like this she said over time you'll learn that boundary setting will go one of two ways. The other person will be offended, or won't that's it one or two ways, like there's nothing to be scared of. The worst thing you could be scared of is oh, that person's offended. Well, that person's a pussy okay, lots of judgment.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, there is. You could lose your friend, you could lose your family member. Establishing boundaries, I would say, in this day and age, I don't think a lot of people would take kindly to it if they don't understand the boundaries, which I don't think a lot of people necessarily do that's probably why they're so hard to set.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's just an ebb and flow of just yeah, it's tricky. I'm just like a wrecking ball and you're like no, no, this is actually a thing where you could lose people, and that's why people are hesitant about it, and I'm like, okay, I feel like we're almost complete opposites in this, where I'm just like okay, we have to be nice, we have to do this, we have to.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm very like rigid and you're just like whatever, like let's just like just screw them all. I think somewhere in the middle is like a healthy place to be.
Speaker 1:I do too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think we're not there yet. We're not there yet.
Speaker 1:No we both got good bits. I think we both got good bits, and then we both have bits we need to work on.
Speaker 2:We have like if this was a puzzle, I'd say we're like five pieces into an a thousand piece puzzle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, five pieces into an a thousand piece puzzle, yeah, and we haven't even found the corners yet.
Speaker 2:Give me 50.
Speaker 1:That's all I I have on that chapter. Do you have anything else to add? I just like.
Speaker 2:I just like that final part about how they can go one of two ways yeah, I thought it was a good chapter, one that I probably will go back to because I need more boundaries in my life.
Speaker 1:So what's the next chapter? What is it called? I already closed it reparenting oh, we're coming towards the end. Yep, I think we have two more chapters, three more chapters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, three more chapters.
Speaker 1:Reparenting. We haven't even done parenting the first time around. No, it's like reparenting ourselves, right yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's not like they just have a chapter on parenting.
Speaker 1:Hi, my name's Kelly. I just got here.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you're a crazy lady.
Speaker 1:So next week we'll be doing chapter 11, reparenting, If you're reading along with us. That's what we will be discussing and today's podcast was a doozy. I'll say yeah, yeah, Real doozy.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1:Please rate, subscribe comment, tell your friends share and don't forget to follow us on Instagram at I'm not okay K podcast, and remember when you're here, you're never alone.
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