I'm Not O.KK
Welcome to I'm Not O.KK, a fresh and engaging podcast where we dive deep into the world of mental health with authenticity, empathy, and a dash of humor. Hosted by two dynamic voices Kimberly Jahns and Kelly Kranz, each episode brings to light aspects of mental health history through storytelling and today's personal stories and triumphs that remind us we're not alone in our struggles.
Every other week we tell a story related to mental health and wellness. With candid conversations we want to dismantle the stigmas surrounding mental health, offering our listeners a safe space to reflect on their own experiences and find comfort in shared stories.
Each episode ends with engaging discussions during the book club portion of our podcast where we dive deep into mental health themes.
As your hosts, we don't just navigate these conversations from a distance; we're right there with you, sharing our battles and breakthroughs. Our goal? To infuse each discussion with laughter and levity, proving that even in our darkest moments, a spark of joy can be found.
I'm Not O.KK is more than just a podcast; it's a community. Whether you're seeking solace, understanding, or just a good laugh amidst the chaos of mental health challenges.
Because when you're here, you're never alone.
I'm Not O.KK
Unshackling Sanity: Dorothea Dix Reforms American Asylums
In this week's episode, Kelly tells us the story of Dorthea Dix and her impact on psychiatric care. We then discuss chapter 4 of "How to Do the Work" by Nicole LePera during our book club.
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
And it looks like a cloud. It does look like a cloud Slime's the best, it's even making a little noise like it is a cloud. Well, actually I don't know what noises clouds make, but you know what I? Mean it's making slime noise.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm not sure slime makes a noise, but yeah, have you seen those videos on? Well, I'm not on TikTok, but on Instagram, where it's just people playing with slime. It's like asmr. Yeah, no, I have not. Oh, you haven't gotten on slime.
Speaker 2:Not slime talk, but instagram slime talk no, I haven't gotten an instagram slime talk at all. No. I don't know my niece plays with slime. She brought it over once. I've made slime with her but like this is how much you have a lot of slime, I know you do yeah, I did have a lot of slime supported small, went to etsy love.
Speaker 1:Etsy bought three and then they gave me a little sample, one, two, so like three and a quarter, and two and a quarter molded and I was like, well, this one still isn't molding. But she said it's because, like, the germs on your hand get into the slime and like, make it mold or whatever. She's like, oh, it looks like it's time to buy a new one. I'm like she, she called you dirty, she called you dirty yeah, she said your slime is dirty because you're dirty, basically.
Speaker 1:But in all fairness, she probably thought this was for, like, my child. Yeah, not not a fucking adult yeah, yeah, exactly the thing was it was a mother-daughter boutique thing like shop, and I was like I love this and this slime is good slime like I'm not gonna say the shop, because I don't want to disparage anybody because this this is good slime, but like and now is it weird that I have a good slime shop down here?
Speaker 2:if you want me to hook you up with them, I don't know, are you serious? Yeah, no, there's just there's. It's also, I think it's a mother or two sisters that make this, that make organic, organic slime Small business. And it's really good. Yeah, I always see them at, like the tents and stuff. By the way, this is a podcast that is not on slime. Yeah, mental health. This is welcome to the um. I'm not okay. K podcast. That's Kimberly over there that's been talking about all of her slime here.
Speaker 1:I am, and I'm Kelly, and this is how I deal with not being. Okay-kay is slime and Legos and other child activities. Yeah, what do?
Speaker 2:you do to. By the way, you can't see her, but she literally has the slime and she's just been playing with it this entire time. Yeah, you paid for it. You get to play with it, with your dirty your dirty hands before before it gets all bacteria molds I gotta play with, yeah, but kim really has all sorts of I'd say like mindful hobbies that yes, I would that are like stress reducing and that's kind of what we're talking about here. A little bit, and starting with slime which I find, which yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but she's got more. She's got Legos too. She's been trying to push Legos on me since, since she met me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you should get Legos. They're the best. They're adult Legos. Might be using them for my centerpieces at my wedding. We'll see. They're kind of expensive but still they're fun. I have Rubik's cubes, play-doh, stress balls. I mean, honestly, it's just like I haven't grown up. That's the activities I do. It's like if I was a child and I could afford activities you know, and you crochet, you crochet I crochet. I'm a garumi, I think that's how it's pronounced. That's like cute little animals.
Speaker 2:What is that? Wait what? Wait back up, you're a garumi.
Speaker 1:No, that sounds inappropriate.
Speaker 2:That's why I backed up the truck.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm going to pronounce it wrong. I think it's Japanese Amigurumi. Amigurumi, yeah, and it means what? It's like cute little animals. I'm not sure if that's the translation, but basically it's like when you make crochet like little, cute little animals, okay, or cute little people, or whatever. It's amigurumi.
Speaker 1:I'm probably going to get destroyed on that pronunciation, but it is what it is I understand that better now, yeah sure honestly, it's just like you'd think from all the activities I have that like my brain would be like golden, but it's moldy, just like my slime it's moldy like your slime.
Speaker 2:Stop taking your bacteria riddled hands and rubbing them all over your brain. I love that excuse, by the way, that's something else. What excuse Just that? That's why it got moldy.
Speaker 1:Oh, with the slime yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've never seen mold get slimy, Even the mold that I make with Elmer's. You mean slime. I just I've never seen. I've never seen mold get slimy, Even the mold that I make with like Elmer's.
Speaker 1:You mean slime, get moldy.
Speaker 2:Yes. Mold gets slimy Slime get moldy. Yes, I've also never seen mold get slimy, though, either. To be real with you, I'm not out here mold hunting, but I've never seen it get slimy.
Speaker 1:Okay, you have to have food that's gone bad in your fridge. That's like weird slime mold.
Speaker 2:No, I don't get slime mold.
Speaker 1:It gets fuzzy sometimes on the fruit, but slime like you have stuff in your fridge that's slime molding well like maybe she's right about why your slime is molting well, there was an egg that because I compost, because I like to, you know, be green, and so I crack the egg and like have the egg go down the drain and then compost the shell, because I'm not sure if you can compost a raw egg, but I'm like I'm not in that business, like that's gonna smell so bad, but like the white part I was just like it was like weird slime, so maybe not mold per se, but food that's gone bad, yeah, disgusting.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's really gross let's pivot from your egg shit okay, well, you know, this is science, kelly.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to teach everybody about science, but yeah, I want to pivot, let's pivot.
Speaker 2:What do I do for my mindfulness stuff? Well, I do pilates. That I do, and that is tough to do. To like stay committed to something, to be disciplined to something. Yeah, like it's, it's, it's almost fucking annoying, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2:But like after I do it I feel great about it. So that's like a and that's an activity where you know, people say I get to shut my brain down and things like that. But it's more like mindful if I'm like doing the correct positions with my body, like I'm not just trying to get through it, I'm actually trying to do it correctly. So I'm like mindful there. But I really don't have other things like you have. Like the other day I was coloring. I could make myself color for like maybe like 20 minutes tops. But I mean I do like it. I never journal. That's a big like peaceful escape. Have you ever journaled?
Speaker 1:I try, and then it lasts one or two days.
Speaker 2:That's how it was when I was younger too. I'd see those commercials with the brother trying to steal the journal on TV and it'd be this special journal. So I always thought I needed one growing up, and every time I'd get one, I'd write in it for a day and then that'd be it and just be like. Justin is so, so cute.
Speaker 1:He wore white sneakers to school today, yeah, and he said my name I know it's always so like you look back, it's so petty, like just the most unimportant thing yeah yeah, but I mean, you have other stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess I garden. See, this is the thing. It's just like all the things that I am supposed to I say am supposed to enjoy doing I shouldn't say it like that, but all the things that I usually enjoy doing I have to force myself to do so like working outside, like I love being outside, like with plants and in the garden. And well, there has to be a garden first for me to be in it. So that's part of the problem is I need to make one. But I do, like you know, play with plants and I like that, and that's mindful and different for me. Really, when people get grounded, I just want to put my feet in the earth, like that really does make me feel better.
Speaker 1:I feel like there was some science or something. Maybe it was about feet touching the earth, but also, I know, hands, like doing projects with your hands, I think helps you focus, or like be more present, or something. I think there is some. Maybe it's like I was gonna say animalistic, but what is it where? It's biological, because you know that's what we did in the olden days, like we were around the earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like wired that way, it's like back there deep, deep, deep in the sub. That's the subconscious, the sub, the sub, the sub honey, isn't?
Speaker 1:what is it? What part of the brain is called? Like you know, has a fancy name, but it's called the little brain. Isn't that the amygdala? That's what I was going to say, but I thought amygdala was emotions. Well, is that the little brain then? Maybe, but I thought like I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's not the vagal. Is it the vagal like I don't know? I don't know what I'm talking about. Is it the vagal nerve? I?
Speaker 1:don't think so. Isn't that the part that's in the middle?
Speaker 2:No, the vagus connects right at the back.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about. Kelly, I think it does, or the amygdala does at the back.
Speaker 2:Are we turning into some type of weird biology podcast right now? What's going on? Don't you have an undergrad degree in psych, shouldn't you know this? Yeah, I mean, I could say the names, I just don't you know. Right now I don't have a map of the brain in front of me, so I'm not out here practicing my degree for years.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know your life, maybe on the side. You know, damn well, know my life.
Speaker 2:I do, I know your life well, fucking marketing. We should just start Fucking marketing hell.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's not great, since you've been doing that for a few years, but I mean, maybe we should just start saying large words so we sound smarter, like mitochondria and osmosis. I can't think of prefrontal cortex, didn't I sound smart?
Speaker 2:of prefrontal cortex. Like didn't I sound smart? You did, especially saying all three in a row. It really sounded I was impressed.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you. That's how I, that's how I impress people, how I get jobs, how I get friends.
Speaker 2:Did you want to osmosis your prefrontal cortex over into some storytelling?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say I'm excited to hear what you have to tell me about today. I want to learn.
Speaker 2:She wants to learn, Learn, she wants to learn. Yeah. So today's story is on a lovely lady, a hero of mental health as she's been described, and her name is Dorothea Dix. Sources for today's story come from articles from the National Women's Hall of Fame, PBS News Hour, Social Welfare Library, the good old Britannica and an article from the National Library of Medicine. So let me tell you a little bit about Dorothea Dix. Please do I will. I'm going to get right into it now. She was born on April 4th 1802 in Hampton Maine Hampton, yeah, I'm probably crushing that Hampton Maine. She was the eldest of three children. She had a challenging childhood, as her father was often absent and her mother suffered from depression. At the age of 12, she moved to Boston to live with her grandmother, and after that she moved to an aunt in Worcester, Massachusetts, and she lived there. Dorothea began teaching school at the young age of 14. What the fuck were you doing at 14? Did you begin teaching?
Speaker 1:No, what is she teaching, though? What did you know at 14?
Speaker 2:I mean back then. Maybe she may have learned a lot. I'm teaching other who knows, but teaching Yep Teaching school at the young age of 14 and founded the dick's mansion, a school for girls, along with a charity for underprivileged girls while she's 14. I'm sure this was probably through her teenage years.
Speaker 1:It started at 14 who gave her a mansion? How is she affording this?
Speaker 2:I have so many questions she also started writing textbooks and authored several popular children's books. So those may have been what funded the endeavors of having the all-girls school.
Speaker 1:But like what, like part of me like that's fantastic for her, I love that. For her I'm supportive, but also part of me hates that I'm like okay, cool, like I was 14. I was, you know, worried about boys, worried about puberty, whatever. And meanwhile she has a mansion helping society, writing textbooks.
Speaker 2:No no, no 1802, different times pressure. Pressure was on.
Speaker 1:The pressure's on now.
Speaker 2:This is why it's even more impressive. So her experiences. They shaped her compassion and dedication to helping others, and particularly she was interested in those in need of mental health care reform. So in her late 30s to mid 40s, Dorothea went on a crusade. She exposed inhumane conditions faced by individuals with mental illness through extensive investigations and documentation on the deplorable treatment they endured. She visited jails, almshouses, which I do have a side note here on what an almshouse is, because I wasn't sure. So I figured how could you be sure if I'm not sure? But an almshouse is a historical type of housing that provided shelter and support for individuals who were unable to care for themselves, had no family to look after them. The facilities were places where the poor and the elderly could live collectively. So that's what an almshouse is.
Speaker 2:So she visited those jails and hospitals all over Massachusetts and neighboring states to observe and publicize really the terrible conditions in which people with mental illness were kept. So she discovered mentally ill individuals housed in horrid conditions that had no heat, no light. The people had little or no clothing, there was no furniture, there was no place to go to the bathroom, they received little to no actual medical treatment and they were subjected to cruel practices such as submerging patients in cold baths for extended periods and administering electroshock treatments without anesthesia. Moreover, the mentally ill were held alongside criminals, regardless of their age or sex. So the focus of these institutions was on containment rather than treatment, and Dorothea Dix did not like that.
Speaker 1:Gosh dang, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:This is the 1800s. It's really, I mean. I know it's far away, but I feel like it's still something we're fighting for.
Speaker 1:Well, I just think she's a. I mean, this is terrible, but once again she's a woman. How much power did she have in the first place? Did she have in the first place? And then to tackle this issue that isn't a popular issue to tackle, I mean, I don't know. I do not know, that's an uphill climb, but I feel like the theme of all mental illness is because it's not understandable to like the general population that it's like okay, let's just put them all away somewhere and shut the doors and like lock the key and whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, don't understand something. Put it out of sight. It's out of mind, out of sight, it doesn't matter. That's like part everything that she was doing here. She's like a big part of it was she had to expose it in order to get any type of change that she wanted. If you don't understand something, how could you want to advocate change for it? Yeah, so her firsthand encounters with the suffering of these individuals motivated her to advocate for improved care and humane treatment.
Speaker 2:So her detailed reports and evidence-based findings presented to state legislators through memorials and petitions. They shed light on the neglect, the abuse and the lack of proper care experienced by those with mental illness. So she got her research where it needed to go. She got it in front of the state legislators. She got them to see what was going on.
Speaker 2:But, however, she faced several challenges in her advocacy work for mental health reform. Like you were saying, kimberly, she's a woman. This was going to be hard. This is an uphill battle, and especially about the attitudes of the mental health during the time. One significant challenge was the attitudes towards mental illness. It was stigmatized and it marginalized individuals with mental health conditions. Additionally, the lack of understanding and awareness about mental health issues posed a barrier for her efforts to reform the treatment of the mentally ill, and she encountered resistance from many institutions and authorities that were not willing to change or were complicit in maintaining inhumane conditions for individuals with mental illness. So, yeah, it definitely wasn't a walk in the park for her. I'd say I'd say this is probably a dark walk in the park, if anything.
Speaker 2:This could not have been fun. This had to be tough to see all of these things. And then, thank God, it motivated you to keep wanting to go, because that could crumble someone's soul and just make them be like nah, I'm good, that's enough for me. This is too much of a fight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of wonder if. Did you find out if she suffered from any mental illness at all?
Speaker 2:She didn't suffer from any mental illness that it came out, but she did have a bunch of ailments during her lifetime. But also those weren't recorded that I was able to find.
Speaker 1:But she was a nurse as well, okay, well, I just think, cause I wasn't, didn't you say her dad, her dad?
Speaker 2:was. He was absent most of the time and her mother had depression.
Speaker 1:Okay. So her mom had depression. So I feel like she would be more likely to have depression and then to see all these things and then try and advocate for it, but probably just get beaten down a lot. I have no idea. Like she must've been quite mentally strong, because I could not handle seeing all these people dealing with these things and also thinking about my mom that's dealt with this, and then going to people and being like this is a huge issue and nobody being like like okay, who cares, like that's why they're locked away like oh gosh, dang yeah, yeah, it's an uphill battle for this change and it just kind of leaves a gross pit in my stomach.
Speaker 2:I feel like I say that every episode, but it's just, it's just so sad. It's just human beings and you're just throwing them away like carelessly and it just doesn't. And then people have to fight and really just to prove like hey, that's a human being, like, just like, why are you doing that to them? Like we have doctors, we have things, we have establishments for this shit. Like why are we doing that? I mean, maybe 1802, obviously it was incredibly different time, which makes it even more impressive, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think there needs to be that baseline of how we treat humans just across the board in general, if you have a mental illness or not. And if you do have a mental illness, they should be treated. I don't want to say differently, but they have to be gosh. I don't want to say something making it sound like they're a product or something I was going to say handled differently, but like they need their own support, a different kind of support that the general population might not need. So it's like, if you're not doing that, I don't know I yeah, it's no, it's a big problem to wrap your head around because it's a big upsetting problem and that everyone acts like there's no solution.
Speaker 1:It's just but it is. It's like, if you think, I mean probably, because to actually tackle this issue is billions of dollars.
Speaker 2:I mean, oh yeah, yeah, you'd have to reform. The first place that mental health reform is needed, I would say would be in police districts or what do you call them Police offices or for police officers, just in general. Because if you get a call and you go to a scene and somebody is there who is having an episode that doesn't need to be handled with an officer, there needs to be like a mental health professional there who can assess the situation, calm the situation down and prevent any violence happening, especially gun violence. I mean, there have been stories of cops showing up ill-equipped, Someone might be like someone's having an episode and all of a sudden they're being shot when it's like.
Speaker 2:That's not why I called for help, help. I called for help because my son is like actively trying to commit suicide, going crazy right now, whatever type of thing. So I would think I would love it there if, when there was like a psych, as it would. I guess maybe they I think they call like, if there is a psych call, that there's actually somebody equipped on the team to handle the call and to run and show the cops are helpful and they're there, but I don't think that they should be running the show when it comes to psych calls, even though they're trained for it. It's not no.
Speaker 1:Well, there's different levels of training, because I was a resident assistant in college and we had to take it wasn't mental health, it was more suicide training just so we could like navigate that, should it happen Like we're not there to like help them by any means, but we're there to like calm the situation until actual help arrives.
Speaker 1:So there's like that kind of thing. And then there's actually being a licensed professional that's dealt with this and knows how to deal with it. Yeah, it's funny when you mentioned police needing it I was like, do you mean police officers need mental health stuff? Because I was thinking my first thought was the homeless population. I'm like a lot of people who are homeless, struggle with mental health issues, but no, I get where you're coming from with police that's a good point.
Speaker 2:That's yeah. Well, yeah, they need, they need support.
Speaker 1:So yeah, gosh it's just all upsetting well, larry.
Speaker 2:Larry's a paramedic, so when they get, there on larry, who's larry you?
Speaker 1:you haven't mentioned Larry yet, have you?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure Larry's my partner. He's a paramedic and when he goes out on psych calls and stuff they have a lot of protocols and things that they have to do. Like he's talked to me about it and I just find it fascinating because sometimes he'll use those goddamn protocols on me.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, we'll be in a fight, we'll be in something. And then, all of a sudden, I'll just start seeing him go into like paramedic mode. I'm like are you fucking kidding me? You're serious right now. Like, are you like, you're you're realizing I am having a mental breakdown, a little mental episode? And he's just backing away, he starts using his soft voice and I'm just like, oh gosh, I would scream.
Speaker 2:I would just be like how do you deal with this? Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah, test it to the limit Like a child during a tantrum.
Speaker 1:You know I would you know I do, I swear, sometimes I I get that where it's like you know what you're supposed to do, like you're like, okay, I'm having an anxiety attack. I should really, like you know, calm myself, you know mindfulness, whatever. And you're like no, I'm going to eat a bag of Cheetos and like freak out for like two hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then, when all is said and done, it's like what's my reward, your reward for what? Being fucking psychotic Like you don't?
Speaker 1:get a reward.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, I just went through, I'm tired, I went through so much trauma, yeah. But, it's so real, it's very real. It's like a cycle.
Speaker 1:It's like some type of trauma.
Speaker 2:I read about a trauma triangle before I forget what the name of that book is. But that's really freaking good. Google the trauma triangle. That book was dope. Maybe we could read that next. It was short. It was a nice short book. I like short.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know we're on chapter four of this book. Girl, how many chapters are in this book? We're going to be here forever and a day.
Speaker 2:Let's get back to Dorothea book we're going to be here forever and a day.
Speaker 1:Let's get back to Dorothea. We got to get back to Dorothea 13 chapters.
Speaker 2:Okay, sorry, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So, as you were saying, the inhumane conditions for individuals. People were resistant to change them. They were complicit with maintaining them. But again, dorothea Dix is meticulous documenting the appalling conditions that she witnessed. They compelled lawmakers to take action towards reforming healthcare practices. So this is what she was able to get done. This is her legacy.
Speaker 2:So Dix's efforts led to the establishment of 32 mental hospitals across various US states, providing dedicated facilities for the care and treatment of individuals with mental illness. Her advocacy, work and influence on state legislators were instrumental in shaping national mental health policy and improving the quality of care for those with mental illness. That is her legacy. That's what came of all of her research was she was able to get the establishment of 32 mental hospitals that were strictly just dedicated to people with mental illness. At the time, and contrary to belief, she is not the person who invented the first mental hospital that was something that came up earlier with Larry when I was talking about the story but Dorothea Dick.
Speaker 2:She passed away on July 17th 1887 in Trenton, new Jersey, at the age of 85. On July 17th 1887 in Trenton, new Jersey, at the age of 85. After a lifetime dedicated to advocating for the welfare of the mentally ill and various social reforms, she retired in Trenton, new Jersey at the age of 79. Her tireless efforts and impactful work in mental health reform and nursing during the Civil War left a lasting legacy that continues to influence psychiatric care practices today, and that is the story of Dorothea.
Speaker 1:Dix Wow, good story. I feel like I knew the name but I didn't know the story, so that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was like when I brought it up this morning to Larry, I was like, oh, I'm going to do my story on Dorothea.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm glad you put in a lot of time into this, Kelly.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I said I brought it up to him that I was doing my story on Dorothea Dix and he came out with this information out of his head too, and I felt like in elementary school did we all semi-learn about her. But we're not really sure, or maybe probably because this is so childish.
Speaker 1:Her last name's dicks, so that's probably why we're like. Well, I guess children like like dick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's somewhere, somewhere in that sick subconscious that we have yeah, yeah, just like that.
Speaker 1:We're basically children for the all of our lives for the remainder of our lives, forever and ever.
Speaker 2:Forever and ever Coming down the river bend. Do do, do so yeah, dorothea Dix, let's give it up for the Dorothea Dix, everybody Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, Gosh, is that as much enthusiasm as we can muster? I mean that was you clapping.
Speaker 2:I made like a noise, like there was an audience, like your clapping was lame as fuck.
Speaker 1:So that's just, that's on you. You were breathing into the microphone. That did not sound like an audience.
Speaker 2:It was supposed to and it would have, and it probably does.
Speaker 1:On the playback or you could have just add like that like button where it's like cheering noises you know, should we get a soundboard for this podcast?
Speaker 2:no, no, we should not, could you imagine?
Speaker 1:no, because you would have too much fun with it and it would just turn into like comedy hour it would like I would you do it during your stories. You would and then she died and they'll be like and then just laughter and be like okay yeah, I don't see nothing wrong with it okay, and there's the issue. Okay, so we get into chapter four, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is the part of the podcast where we talk about the book we're reading. We're doing a little book club corner. You're more than welcome to join us if you haven't already. Book club corner Coming to you. The book we're doing is how to Do the Work by Dr Nicole LaPera, and we are on chapter four. Four, that's funny funny, what like in golf four, that gives you humor, that makes you laugh yeah, that was hilarious.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, different strokes for different folks, which is funny. Which is a golf pun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm there. We made it. I'm there, you're good.
Speaker 1:Full circle.
Speaker 2:Oh, full circle, all right. So number four, chapter four, is called Trauma Body, trauma Body. So Nicole starts off talking about her experiences, essentially with the trauma in her body. She doesn't exactly tell us what it is at first, but it goes into all the little things that she was experiencing and then, essentially, she started to faint and that was her body screaming at her, telling her that okay, something's wrong, like you need to stop. I guess later on it comes to due to undealt with trauma.
Speaker 2:It always comes back to trauma comes to due to undealt with trauma. It always comes back to trauma. Yeah, but this I found interesting. So after she fainted the first time yeah, because she fainted again. So after she fainted the first time, she returned to work as unsettled and detached as ever. This I vibe with, Okay. Increasingly, I began to notice other issues with my cognition. I often struggled to find the right words. I've been there. During one therapy session I lost my train of thought so completely that I let the silence hang in the air for several minutes, apologizing profusely to my client for the lapse. Well, I've been on many client calls where I have done that and just lost my thought and looked in the air and just, you know, hope someone else would pick it up.
Speaker 1:And nobody did, and nobody did.
Speaker 2:Just lingered out there. It just lingered out there and then she fainted again. So it's just these little symptoms that she brings up about when she doesn't deal with trauma and how it's affecting, how her mind is affecting her body or essentially her nervous system. That unresolved trauma weaves itself into the very fabric of our being is essentially what she's trying to tell us with her story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of going off what you said, where she talks about immobilization, where it's fight, flight or freeze. I love it when it is just where your body just tries to protect itself and I think, kind of like you said, where it's okay, she fainted, she did whatever. I feel like it's your body just. I mean one telling you something's wrong, but two also trying to just protect. There's that when people are in so much pain or something, sometimes people pass out, or people pass out during traumatic events or whatever, and I think it's just your body's trying to protect itself from going through that trauma or dealing with the situation or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:And I think that's so fascinating, that these symptoms, which aren't great, is just our body trying to cope, Like, at the end of the day, our body's just trying to survive another day and it's just trying to adapt to our thoughts. You know our behaviors, that kind of thing. So it's just I always find that so interesting on why these things happen.
Speaker 2:Well, it happened because of trauma, trauma, trauma and stress, stress, stress, stress. She says in the book. Stress is more than just a mental state. It's an internal condition that challenges homeostasis. Stress is more than just a mental state. It's an internal condition that challenges homeostasis, and homeostasis is a state of physical, emotional and mental balance.
Speaker 1:So when we experience a physiological stress response our brain perceives that we don't have adequate resources to survive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's when we start to do our fight flight or freeze. Let's just leave that on a pause.
Speaker 1:Let's just pause that, pause, let's just leave that on a pause.
Speaker 2:Let's just pause for several minutes. And then it says the obvious stress is unavoidable. Yeah, we all fucking know stress is unavoidable. I was so happy that she brought up fight, flight or freeze, because I always say fight, fight or freeze and people always will correct me and they'll say fight or flight and I'm like no, there's a freeze option. Like you can freeze, like think about it If you're like she even gives an example about a bear in here Like think about it If you're with a bear, like you could run from the bear, you could fight from the bear, but if the bear is on top of you you might play dead. That's the freeze. Or you could literally just, you know, stay, freeze and stay in your spot, like shaggy from scooby-doo and great real life example kelly you're welcome.
Speaker 2:I just had. I don't know why I said that, but you know that's what lives in my head on friday afternoons, what else? Lives in there but is but like even the little noise of him running, like we know when their feet are getting ready to go and then they take off and it's like their feet are behind them.
Speaker 1:I can't say I recall that, considering I am a grown adult and I have not watched Scooby-Doo in quite a few years.
Speaker 2:What did you think about? There's two types of stress. There's normative stress that helps us grow and adapt. That's like relationships, job loss, like death, birth, things like that. And then there's chronic stress that's constant and persistent. It wears us down and harms us and our bodies. That prevents us from getting back to homeostasis. I never thought of stress as two different things. I never thought of a normal stress versus. It's all just been one umbrella for me.
Speaker 1:I think I've looked at things as under different umbrellas, purely because my therapist, when I talk to her about anxiety or stress or whatever she's like you will have anxiety in your life. Some anxiety is good. You're anxious about walking down a dark alley or whatever. It's almost like gut instinct.
Speaker 1:You get this feeling where you're a little nervous or whatever, but there is a point where it becomes unhealthy. You're nervous to walk into your bedroom for no reason. You know that kind of thing. So I think I kind of knew that like some stress will happen and can be very productive, but beyond a certain point it becomes detrimental. So I kind of understood that prior to. It just sucks, because it's like where is the line? Like okay, cool, I'm stressed about this job, but the job is how I feed my family. You know Like yeah, yeah. And also there was oh gosh, what was it when? Also there was oh gosh, what was it when. When our body is so, our body is used to like being under stress for like a short period of time, cause, like in you know, caveman times, we'd be chased by a lion and we got to run and we're stressed and you know you get that all the chemicals and whatever.
Speaker 2:Pump that cortisol, get that adrenaline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, fight or cortisol get that adrenaline, yeah yeah, fight or flight, you know, and so you'd run and whatever, and then you'd get away from the lion and you'd like be able to calm down when now it's like the lion is everywhere, like you're like frick, I don't know what to make for dinner. Lion, yeah, you know. Schoolwork lion, job, lion, and it's just like we blow everything up. I mean, all of it's important, but to how much, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And like yeah, yeah, our lion stress adapted to stupid like small stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can get down with that. Okay, thank you. I love my metaphor. I do too I really do.
Speaker 1:There's like so proud of you. Thank you Honestly. You better send me a sticker, cause I want a physical sticker that says number one podcaster Okay, that says number one podcaster Okay. There's also I've heard where. It's like our generation has been like a news cycle that never ends, Like we know when bad things happen across the world and it's like, yeah, bad things happen and it's terribly sad, but we don't have the mental capacity to deal with all of it Because we can't like like I can't help when two countries are fighting across the world. I can do what I can here, you know, educate myself, have conversations, you know vote, that kind of thing, but it's not like.
Speaker 1:I can go over there and, like you know, take on, yeah, yeah, do peace talks with two countries, but we just take on so much stress from just always knowing about all the bad things that are happening and it's just you can't handle it all Like nobody can, because we can't deal with it all.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I feel like a lot of us are just running, like running from it, like I picture a giant snowball on a hill and just running in front of it as it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, like throughout your whole life. Ball just gets bigger and bigger and bigger because you learn more the more you get older. You learn a little bit about the world. You get a little bit confused. You don't like some things, you question some things, you say you do a lot of things. I think sometimes it's just some ways that people maintain their peace is just to outrun it all. If you just keep moving, if you just keep going, you can outrun it, which is not healthy. Like this book is talking about dealing with the trauma and not running away from the trauma or burying it deep inside. But it seems like a very easy thing to do, just to keep running, running from the lion, like all of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my sister love her to death. But like she is constantly busy, like constantly, and she has a million things happening in her life and eventually, normally it does like catch up to her where she'll have, like you know, gut bacteria issues or you know sleep issues or just all these things, and it catches up with you one way or another. It catches up, which sucks, and I always think I'm like I deal with my trauma. Come on, like I sit and I think about it and it's like but do you? And even if you think about it, are you changing your behaviors? Are you managing these things? It's just so much work. It's so much work and I'm so lazy when it comes to my mental health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. This whole thing is a lot of work. The book is called how to Do the Work. Yeah, and we don't want to do the work, we'd rather just like try and outrun the snowball. Yeah, or me just freeze. I do. I like to freeze lately. That's my favorite thing. I'm such a freezer. Hi, my name's Kelly. I identify as a freezer. I've been doing it for about five years.
Speaker 1:Five years, pretty much a pro as a freezer. I've been doing it for about five years, pretty much a pro. I freeze, yeah, I mean it's so true, though, cause, like we both admit, we take naps that are sometimes hours long, and that's not the healthiest way to deal with things. Yeah, they're not healthy.
Speaker 2:They're not healthy naps. They're not good. They're avoidance depression naps. It's the depression kitty coming in, wrapping you up, giving you a nap yeah, and it feels so good.
Speaker 1:It feels so good it does. I'm thinking about it now and I'm like frick, I'm going to take a nap after this.
Speaker 2:It feels so good, it's like, but like what? But then, like you wake up and I'm like the whole day is gone.
Speaker 1:now I'm a bum yeah, and then you feel guilty, and then yes, and then it's guilty, but you'll do it.
Speaker 2:But you do the whole thing again tomorrow. Yeah, because all because all you want to do is nap and it's like, why do I? Like? Yesterday I really wanted to not nap. I even said to kimberly I was like I'm not gonna nap today, I'm not gonna do it. I did it, yeah, and I wound up canceling two of my Pilates classes because I took an app that is not the day that I wanted to have, and now I feel like a shyster about it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny that you mentioned at the beginning how Pilates is like one of the few things that you see as more of an outlet and you just skipped it.
Speaker 2:You need to find more outlets I do need to find more outlets. But yeah, that's why I get. I get really upset when I skip pilates, because that's when I know like things are really not okay, like because I shouldn't be skipping it. I go often enough that when I I just shouldn't have done it and that's just the drama.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like we all need to have our threshold of being like yeah, and now I'm not okay, Like now stuff has to change, even in a small way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, girl, what are you doing? There's so much in this chapter. I'm just looking at the emotional addiction portion, but actually I want to stop and talk about the social world for a second. We did immobilization. The next is a social world. That's on page 76. So I like this.
Speaker 2:In the beginning, again, she is a therapist, so she's gotten people that come to her and they say certain things in common. And she says they say things like I just can't seem to connect with anyone. I want friends, but I can't seem to cultivate any emotional depth. No one knows the real me. I can't find love.
Speaker 2:All of this is connected to our polyvagal or vagus nerve, which is interesting. Polyvagal or vagus nerve, which is interesting. How our vagus nerve controls our social anxiety. Okay, so here's a good one.
Speaker 2:You might have been obsessed over what to wear to a party, planning every detail, every possible conversation topic, or you may have felt totally neutral about the party, no warning signs and you might feel uncomfortable and act accordingly. Either way, none of it matters. And you might feel uncomfortable and act accordingly. Either way, none of it matters. Once you actually walk into the room, because suddenly all eyes are on you, your face grows hot and red. When you hear laughter, which you're certain is about your outfit or your hair, which I think we've all been there, that's definitely a thing. Someone brushes past you and you feel claustrophobic. All of the strangers seem to be leering, even if you know rationally that this is not a hostile place and that no one is looking at you or judging you. It's nearly impossible to shake the feeling once you're trapped in it and that's that there's a threat from the vagal nerve.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, it's amazing how we tell ourselves something and we believe it. That's the whole. Thoughts. What is it? Thoughts become beliefs, beliefs become actions. Something like thoughts becomes, actions become beliefs. I don't know the exact circle, but it's like we like we can make ourselves believe stuff just from our telling ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, like I think, what is it? Or, yeah, we can. Our minds are crazy, our minds are so powerful.
Speaker 2:They are and they're so, they're so powerful. It's a lot of subconscious perceiving threats using our nervous system's sixth sense, like this is just she's got using our nervous system sixth sense. This chapter's got a lot of how our body reacts to trauma in it, I guess. So it's hard for me to explain because I am not a body person. It's hard for me. But I like the co-regulation. It's like when we feel safe it's reflected in our eyes and our voice and our body language. So this is something that you could pass on to others. So it's like if you were to enter a room with me all of a sudden, you would take on those attributes too because I'm behaving that way, kind of thing. That's so crazy. Co-regulation it says it's something that it's like the most common is obviously like your parent to your child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Because, like growing up around it, you begin to try and like, either calm it, so like if your parents super anxious, you know you either become anxious like them or you try and calm them, which brings anxiety to you. When you were talking about like the body and stuff, it made me think of this book. I haven't read it, but my family has my mom and sister. It's called the Body Keeps the Score Brain, mind and Body and the Healing of Trauma. It's by Bessel van der Kolk but it's called the Body Keeps the Score and I think it has the same premise that like this stress anxiety when we think, oh, you know it's gone. It's like, no, your body knows your body is the one sometimes just like dealing with it. So just thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2:I've heard about that book. I think my mom read it. Actually, she reads a lot of these types of books. Moms, moms, in these books, what do you mean? You do?
Speaker 2:moms are the best. But yeah, trauma, trauma, body. I like this chapter a lot. I identified a lot with her examples about people not wanting to get out of bed and things like that and I always like, knew about the nervous, like regulating and deregulating, but she made a lot more of those connections clear for me. That's about all I got there, yeah, but those are all my notes, that's what. I've been doing. I've just been reading my notes.
Speaker 2:Notes taking notes. Yeah, our next chapter is mind-body healing, healing practices. So we're just about halfway through the book sweet.
Speaker 1:Look at us reading a book.
Speaker 2:We we're reading, we're reading, and we're doing that because that is a healthy hobby to do and it's good to do with others, so that's why we chose to do our book club on the podcast. Kimberly actually is an avid reader, while I am not avid reader I mean not lately.
Speaker 1:I've only read three books this year.
Speaker 2:So it's like what a month. I'm like looking, I'm looking to see what month it is. Where are we in the year?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's March.
Speaker 2:Well, all right, Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen. We'd appreciate your support. We appreciate everything. Podcast has been great. Kimberly, this podcast was great.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, really so much fun, because here you're never alone.
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