Intrigued by psychological experiments and their ethical ramifications? Kelly’s deep dive into the Rosenhan experiment of the 1970s will captivate you. We discuss how David Rosenhan's pseudo-patients exposed flaws in psychiatric diagnoses and mental institutions. Then our candid chat about emotional maturity, inspired by Dr. Nicole LePera’s "How to Do the Work," brings a light-hearted twist to the serious business of growing up emotionally.
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Intrigued by psychological experiments and their ethical ramifications? Kelly’s deep dive into the Rosenhan experiment of the 1970s will captivate you. We discuss how David Rosenhan's pseudo-patients exposed flaws in psychiatric diagnoses and mental institutions. Then our candid chat about emotional maturity, inspired by Dr. Nicole LePera’s "How to Do the Work," brings a light-hearted twist to the serious business of growing up emotionally.
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Welcome to. I'm Not OKK, I'm Kimberly and I'm Kelly, and this is our podcast that we do every week for you, yes, and for us, for our mental health. Yes, kind of it actually is good for our mental health. We look forward to doing it and I mean, do we?
Speaker 2:Because sometimes we're like, oh, I don't want to record, and then we're like, no, you need to.
Speaker 1:But the other person pushes the other person. Yeah, we hold each other accountable and it's not really like I don't want to record, it's more like um, but can I just like nap a little longer and then we'll just like push it back, because I'm both like, we know we want to record and then it's in our calendar to record. But you know, depression it happens, it happens a lot. You're like great, I have no energy today for this. All I can do is sleep all day. So sometimes we have to take that into consideration and adjust our schedule. But I think we're good, we're doing a good job.
Speaker 2:I mean we're doing our best for right now. I mean this is our 11th episode. I think we're good, we're doing a good job. I mean we're doing our best for right now.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is our 11th episode. I think we should give ourselves more credit. I mean, we did more podcasting than most people who start podcasting and we're mentally ill, yeah.
Speaker 2:But who's to say, other people aren't mentally ill and they're doing podcasts about not mental illness.
Speaker 1:So are they better than us?
Speaker 2:We shouldn't compare.
Speaker 2:I didn't go outside the other day two days ago and I was like, oh, I should go outside, because my two degrees was like going outside, because, like, I'm trying to garden and I'm trying to be one with nature or whatever. But the weather gave me an excuse and you might be like, oh, what weather? Kimberly? Like, was it raining? Was whatever? No, the wildfires in Canada, which I did not know were happening. The smoke comes down to, like you know, wisconsin and the Midwest, and we have air quality alerts where, like you, shouldn't go outside because the air is bad, because it's like smoke filled, so couldn't go outside.
Speaker 1:What's your sky?
Speaker 2:look like Well, it's like hazy, but like now it's fine. Like now I think the weather's fine. It's just kind of chilly. But yeah, it's like weird, it's like hazy, but like now it's fine. Like now I think the weather's fine. It's just kind of chilly but yeah, it's like weird, it's like cloudy but hazy, and then I just on my laptop the only well my mom tells me. But also at the bottom bar on my laptop it's like air quality alert. I'm like good, I didn't want to go outside anyway.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Canada wildfires, but also they need to go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like also Canada, I hope everything's fine. Yeah, but yeah, I didn't even know that was happening. I'm like, is there so much crap stuff in the news that, like the wildfires are taking a back seat, like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't hear about them at all. It's mostly columbia university right now. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that I've been following and you know the students, the protesting all of that, and that's very upsetting yeah, it's, it is. And, like when it was first happening, a lot of people were like, what are they going to do? Treat this like kent university and like what happened back then, just like rally up all the students. I mean that was a massacre, but yeah, so that's new and you know, the world's on fire.
Speaker 2:Literally and also In some places. Yeah, most places. There was like this was like the top of the news, I don't know, maybe a month ago, a few weeks ago I'm not sure if, because it's not your neck of the woods there's two locusts groups like locusts, the bug, the factions of locusts?
Speaker 2:Tell me about them I don't know what they're called and they're matching up like their breeding season or something, and it only matches up once every I don't know how many years. So there's supposed to be like a crap ton of locusts. I think it's locusts as I say this. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I have heard that multiple times throughout my life, since I've been a little girl, since, like, teenager, college, like whatever my entire fucking life. I've heard about these locusts coming back and it's going to be like you're not going to be able to walk a foot or two feet without seeing a locust on the ground or being hit by a locust. And it has never, ever happened. I've never seen it happen. They come out from underground. I'm like where, where? Yeah, but you live on the East Coast, it's not the East.
Speaker 2:Coast.
Speaker 1:No, it was always in New York. Always, we would hear it. This is in the middle of the country. We always had locusts. We had tons of locusts in.
Speaker 2:August. Now I have to Google this. Why am I always Googling things while we're talking?
Speaker 1:We don't have someone else to Google it. That's in the room with us yet. One day we will, one day we'll have an audio engineer with us and they'll be like oh, let me Google that for you real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then they'll be like you don't pay me enough for this job. I'm not Google, You're not paying me to Google something.
Speaker 1:That's not how it works.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Swarm, lucas, swarm. No, that's 2022. Gosh, there's like nothing lately. I swear this was a thing, I swear.
Speaker 1:No, you're probably right. They do it all the time. I don't know what it is, I don't know why it comes out.
Speaker 2:Here's February 2024. Giant locust swarms could expand to new areas with climate change. Maybe it wasn't locusts, maybe it was something else.
Speaker 1:I mean, you guys always get a fuck ton of mosquitoes. I don't think it's mosquitoes Like you can't you literally can't walk like an inch without mosquitoes attacking you.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah but isn't that like?
Speaker 1:everywhere. No, no, it's really not. It's really really not. Like I've never like I thought them. I was like I'm coming from North Carolina, like when I go up there to visit and be like, yeah, the mosquito problem? Sure, like we have mosquitoes down here, we have no. Seems like there are these tiny little bugs that bite, you know, and I go up there and I'm just like, oh God, they were not kidding Like there's mosquitoes everywhere. They're just like dead by the back porches, like they're just piled up by like like doors, and I'm like, oh I was watching this video, probably on social media, so is it true, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But there's gosh, I don't know what country this is. I want to say like South America, africa, but they have like swarms of mosquitoes and they catch them with like buckets because they're in these huge swarms, and then they make them into patties, like mosquito patties, because then it's protein, and I was like, oh my gosh, they like cook them up. I was like that's actually really creative.
Speaker 1:It is, it's creative, it's also disgusting, also very, very disgusting.
Speaker 2:A lot of other cultures eat bugs, and bugs are actually a really good source of protein.
Speaker 1:If you were over in another country and like on a street market and you know they have all, would you try? Would you try a type of bug that they prepared it?
Speaker 2:depends the bug, how much I can see of the face and what it's cooked Like. If you're like here's a deep fried grasshopper but it's like battered and deep, like whatever I'd be like. Okay, okay, I take it you wouldn't.
Speaker 1:I don't think I could. It'd just be like crispy, It'd be like a. But when you smash bugs like you see the guts that come out of them. There's guts in everything. Yeah, but their guts are green. So you're telling me like I'm eating green guts because they don't like. This conversation is gross. We got to move on from this. Anyway, real quick, I'm jumping back to the cicada things.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was right. So there's two broods of cicadas that's what they're called, yes broods. So one is on a 13-year cycle and the other is on a 17-year cycle, and they emerge at the same time from underground, in a rare synchronized event that last occurred in 1803. So that's happening this year.
Speaker 1:Sure it is. You, let me know. You, let me know when they come up from underground. They've been down there since 1803. Oof, oof.
Speaker 2:You let me know, no, not since 1803. The last time these two broods like had this you know, at the same time was in 1803. I feel like you're very proud that you know the word brood.
Speaker 1:Now Okay For the locusts. Yes, I am.
Speaker 2:These two broods. Oh, I'm sorry that. I'm excited about more intelligence and knowledge in my brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry too, because it's about locusts. Okay, Well it's not about locusts, it's about cicadas. But Okay, oh, okay, we're changing the name now. I'm fine with it. I support you, I support the cicadas.
Speaker 2:I support the locusts.
Speaker 1:I support your dreams, even if it's fake news. So how was your?
Speaker 2:two. Well, I told you my two degrees couldn't exactly be completed, but I did do some two degrees because the weather was fairly decent and yeah. So I'm really happy about that being outside when the weather's decent is so nice.
Speaker 1:It is so so, so nice, and it's just. You have to take advantage of it before all of a sudden, it becomes a sweaty hot mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, or freezing cold, yeah, it's so cute. My um doggo walter, he like lays in the sun with me as I'm gardening and I'm like.
Speaker 1:You need that vitamin d bub.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so that was my two degrees. I think I did quite well outside of that air quality issue.
Speaker 2:My next two degrees. I really kind of just want to stick on this sleep pattern thing I have going right now. I'm very proud of myself because I've been trying to go to bed by 10, which is insane for me. But like I, oh my gosh I fell asleep at like 9.30 and then woke up at 5 feeling refreshed and I think you knew this, kelly, because I texted you and it was so nice. It was so nice. I was like is this how normal people feel? And I'm trying to keep that going. But normal people feel, and I'm trying to keep that going, but getting a little wonky, waking up at 2 am, 6 am, but I'd like to keep that going. So that's my next two degrees. How about you, kelly Kranz? What was your two degrees?
Speaker 1:Well, I love you so much and I'd love if you could tell me what it was Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you asked me your two degrees was going outside lighting up your fire pit no, that's not a euphemism for anything else. You wanted to go out and have a night where you can decompress and just be by yourself by the fire pit.
Speaker 1:All right. So my, I forgot see the fire pit thing filled by the wayside. So I completely forgot about the two degrees there. Yeah, this past week I've been getting ready for a trip, so other priorities came. I put other priorities before my own, which is not something that I'm supposed to be doing. I would like, like I've said before, I'd like to feed my soul and do things that make me feel better. Yeah, this whole week I've just kind of felt like a slave to errands and getting stuff done and, yeah, just lots of anxiety around that too.
Speaker 1:Cause it's like every morning I wake up and be like what do I have to do today? And I'm like completely paralyzed. I'd be like, what do I have to do today? And I'm like completely paralyzed and it's just like, okay, and then I do.
Speaker 1:I am like obsessed with time, so I'll think of things in time intervals. I'll be like, okay, I only I have three hours until I get to do this, so what am I going to do for three hours? I'm just going to worry about the thing that I have to do three hours from now and be like, oh, I couldn't do what I wanted to do because I have this in three hours, and then it's like I'm even doing it now. I'm like, well, when this is done, I know I have nothing left to do for the day, because I go on vacation tomorrow. So I'm like okay, I know I have nothing to do today after this recording. This recording is going to be the best thing that we're doing today, but I'm still anxious. I'm still because now it's like well, I got to paint my toes. Who the fuck gets anxious about painting their fucking toes?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, in all fairness, I have a checklist and if I put paint nails on there, I'm like oh my gosh, I have to do that. And if I don't do it for a few days, it's like top of mind, I'm like I have to do that, I have to do that.
Speaker 2:So I kind of get that anxiety. Thank you for it. You know what? One thing I think in the book keep referencing that book was like renaming your feeling. So it's like, oh, you're anxious about that. No, are you anxious or are you just like stressed that it won't get done, or like excited to have it done, or you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Or you just don't want to do it.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, maybe where you're like this is dumb and a waste of my energy. Why am I doing this? But it's like putting a name to the feeling rather than just throwing it in the bucket of anxiety, being like oh wait, actually I feel excited about this, I'm not anxious about it. I'm excited. Not saying that you aren't anxious about this, but just it's interesting.
Speaker 1:No, that's true. Like I do, I do have to reframe some things because I'll come off of like like it happened. It happened last night. I came off a day of running errands and then I wanted to end my day hanging out with my niece and by the time like the end of my day came, it's like oh well, like you know, I still have more to do. And it's like no, no, no, no, no, you don't have more to do, you're going to go have fun and you're going to play with your niece because that's what you wanted to do before you went away.
Speaker 1:Like you know, this is something that feeds your soul, but it's still like I want to take it away from myself. You know, like I'm just so, my two degrees right now is all over the place. It's like 17 million degrees. It's 17 million degrees. I'm in all sorts of directions. But after my trip, when I get back, I think I'm going to have more momentum and I would like to use that more towards just focusing on myself, and I guess this is something that I did for myself. I joined a Pilates classical certification course.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 1:Because I do love me some Pilates since I've been a little girl and it's something that I've always wanted to do and the timing is right. So, again, that's not a little two degrees, that's a big thing. And I'm like gosh, am I going to be able to handle that? What happens if I have a manic episode in the middle of that? What if I can't finish my hours? There's all these thoughts that are around it middle of that. What if I can't finish my hours? Like, there's all these thoughts that are around it, like. And then I just remind myself, like bipolar people can do anything, like we're fine, like we're good, we could, we could do this, but again, that's that's like a 17 million degrees. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I take I I really can't take baby steps, but back to this fire pit when I get back that shit going to be built and that two degrees is going to be done, okay, so continuing build fire pits, yeah, yeah. And then I'll probably have some more things as, like, pilates unfolds, because that's going to be a lot of work that I'm going to probably need, you know, support.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, as my dad always says, he's like how do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time? And I actually, in therapy, I realized this is how I get overwhelmed. I look at the goal. The goal for example, buy a house I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so overwhelming. All the stuff, money you have to save for it, things you have to do all this stuff. But I'm trying to look at the steps to getting there. So the goal might veer like maybe I buy a condo instead, or whatever. But it's like, okay, step one, start saving like $10 a week or whatever it is, rather than focusing on that goal and just like, okay, how do I get there? It's like, okay, well, life is going to throw you a curve ball, but you have these steps so you can kind of bob and weave. That's the way I'm attempting to look at it, because otherwise I just I see the goal and I'm like, no, thank you, that's too much, I'm overwhelmed Bye.
Speaker 1:So I see it as like a huge wall that's stacked up and it's like I can't get through that, like that's an obstacle. And then I reframe that in my brain after years of therapy to be a trail. So I like hiking, so it's a trail. So I'm walking in the woods on a flat trail, everything around me is like grassy, beautiful mossy, and it's like I get to paths in the road. So it's like or like there's I love video games, so there's like quests on the side, so those little things that would stack up now become a quest. It's like or like there's I love video games, so there's like quests on the side, so those little things that would stack up now become a quest. It's like, oh, I could go do that quest and I could go do this. So that's kind of just talking about it. Like that just takes the stress away from that big brick wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's. I feel like we cause, I feel like we're higher achievers, like we like to, you know, do something, we enjoy, work hard towards something. But sometimes it just becomes too overwhelming that it's like, yeah, you're like I want to win a gold medal in the Olympics, you know, whatever, and it's just like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to do that. But it's like, okay, how do we start? What's step one? Like it's good to have goals, but I think, at least for me, they just become too overwhelming. Yeah, it's good to have goals, but I think, at least for me, they just become too overwhelming. Yeah, it's like, okay, well, nobody's winning an Olympic gold tomorrow from eating chips off the sofa yesterday, so I don't know. But it's so tricky because I think about goals I want to achieve and then I'm like, well, where do I start? And then I don't even start because I'm like I'm already overwhelmed. But I'm happy that it uses stress, talking about it, it does, it does. That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm excited to hear your story, kelly. What do you have for me this week? How excited are you? Okay, excited, but like not that excited. Excited was too big a word. Are you excited? Are you excited?
Speaker 1:Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited?
Speaker 2:Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited?
Speaker 1:Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are?
Speaker 2:you excited.
Speaker 1:Are you excited? Are you excited Are?
Speaker 2:you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Are you excited? Good, I needed a. Yeah, uh, yeah, okay, I don't know what I'm saying anymore. Let's just let's like you go, you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is. I took a swerve, like usually I've been doing people and things like that, so the story that I put together for today is actually a experiment.
Speaker 2:Ooh, those always turn out terribly. I'm excited Indeed indeed so.
Speaker 1:The sources for today's story. It's one main source that I used, called On being Sane in Insane Places by psychologist David Rosenhan in the Journal of Science in 1973.
Speaker 2:Wow a source before the story. I know what is this. Who are you?
Speaker 1:Who am I? I'm putting sources before the story, not in the middle of the story, I know, but this source was, you know, right there in the face, because it's like, hey, this is the experiment. So, oh my God, all right. So follow me back. We're going to journey back to the 1970s and we're going to explore one of the most influential experiments in the field of psychology the Rosenhan experiment.
Speaker 2:Have you ever heard of it?
Speaker 1:Never heard of it. Well, I'm going to tell you about it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you about it, please do.
Speaker 1:Well, in the turbulent years of the 1970s, amidst the growing concerns about the reliability of psychiatric diagnosis and the treatment of mental illness, psychologist David Rosenhan embarked on a bold experiment. He had a team of volunteers. He sought to infiltrate the inner sanctum of psychiatric hospitals, posing as patients to test the limits of the psychiatric system.
Speaker 2:Oh, is this the one where they like put sane people in and then told them to like try and get out?
Speaker 1:basically, or like oh, like, yeah, yeah yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh, I'm excited. Okay, yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:It's pretty cool. So eight individuals, including psychologists and one graduate student, assume the roles of pseudo patients and they each fabricated symptoms of one symptom auditory hallucinations to gain admission to psychiatric hospitals across the United States. And this is great because, despite presenting no other signs of mental illness, they were all admitted and diagnosed with various disorders, such as schizophrenia, depression, bipolar all based off of auditory hallucinations. And then so they all got admitted right away, underneath different things. So a little bit more about these pseudo patients, which is what I'll be calling them throughout. The story is they were admitted to. First of all, they're all private. I don't have their names. They all remain private in the experiment and afterwards. But they were admitted to eight facilities and located in five different states across the United States. So the states that were represented in the study. There were five of them California, new York, maryland, illinois and Michigan. So these institutions were chosen to provide a diverse sample of psychiatric hospitals across different regions of the country, allowing for a broader assessment of psychiatric diagnosis and treatment practices. So you know, a controlled study. That's what we're doing here. That's what we're doing here.
Speaker 1:The Rosenhan experiment Is that the name of the scientist? That's what we're doing here the Rosenhan experiment. Is that the name of the scientist? Yeah, david Rosenhan.
Speaker 2:So the experiment is named after him. I didn't pay attention to the sources. I was just shocked that you had a source.
Speaker 1:So I was like oh gosh, that one main source, this one dude.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, I zoned out. I was just like holy crap, okay, anyway, okay.
Speaker 1:So now let's talk a little bit about the pseudo patients. So, as all of these patients are, these pseudo patients are settling into their roles within the psychiatric hospitals. They find themselves immersed in a world filled of uncertainty, confusion and isolation. Behind the closed doors of these institutional wards, they were witness to the reality that a few outsiders were ever able to see. They got to see the quote-unquote horrors of what it was like being institutionalized in the 70s. Some of these conditions that they saw was dehumanizing conditions.
Speaker 1:The pseudo-patients observed firsthand these dehumanizing conditions of the psychiatric wards. They were overcrowded, understaffed facilities struggling to meet the basic needs of patients. They noted the stark contrast between sterile clinical environment and the warm human touch that was completely absent in these facilities. There was a lack of privacy. It was a luxury that was rarely afforded to the patients within the institutions. The pseudo patients found themselves under constant observation, with little opportunity for solitude or personal space. They recounted the discomfort of sharing intimate details of their lives in group therapy sessions or during rounds with the medical staff, all under a watchful gaze of fellow patients and hospital personnel. We do group therapy now, but without the warm human touch. I could only imagine how degrading that might have felt.
Speaker 2:Well, just like, also almost humiliating. Or just like, if they're like, oh, do you have any STDs? Or whatever, and like you're in a group of peers and you're like, oh yeah, I have four, it's just like, oh my gosh, yeah, I couldn't imagine that. Just, even with my own doctor where it's like, oh hey, like this embarrassing question, that Just even with my own doctor where it's like, oh hey, this embarrassing question. And it's like I'm glad you're the only one here and we have laws so other people can't know about this. Yeah.
Speaker 1:HIPAA. Thank God, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, the pseudo patients. They also noticed power dynamics and this one gets me. So, within the hierarchy I'm going to have I can't say this Kimberly just already make, one gets me so within the hierarchy structure of the psychiatric wards, the power differentials were very apparent.
Speaker 1:The pseudo-patients observed how staff members wielded their authority over patients, dictating their daily routines and decisions without any meaningful input or consent. They witnessed instances of coercion and manipulation, where patients were pressured to comply with treatment regimens or they had to face punishment. Gosh so yeah.
Speaker 2:That makes me think of have you seen Nurse Ratched? I haven't. Okay, it's with Sarah Paulson, I believe, and I've only seen a few episodes, but like they don't treat the patients like super great, like it's, it's hard to watch because I was just like, yes, this is a fictional account, I think, but I'm like I know this stuff was happening at hospitals all over the country and that's why I said this is always the part that gets me like the power dynamics, Because when you do see those documentaries or the TV shows, movies, it's just like these people just have power over other people and that's it.
Speaker 1:It's just nasty. That's a person that needs help. Why are you telling them that they have one option or they're going to get punished? There's plenty of more options. It's just so sad to me. It's just very sad to see other humans treat humans that way.
Speaker 2:I think it's that God God dynamic where you know, there was that. When you said documentary it made me think of like killer nurse or something where that nurse was like killing patients and I think it's just that. I mean, I would assume it's that power like you control their health, you can kill them.
Speaker 2:And that's where it's like you have to have a lot of trust in your providers. But some people use that. You know, like I've heard I'm not in the medical field, but like surgeons have that because, like you are splayed open on the table or whatever it is and they're in there, like they like one wrong move and they are just gone. You can kill somebody. So there's a lot of stress with that but it's also a lot of freaking power and yeah, it's not the same as necessarily a nurse giving you one option or else they're going to punish you. But yeah, that power dynamic is just. It's scary because sometimes people shouldn't have power and they're given it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you are in a position where you have to rely on that because you're in a sense helpless. That's your only option. Yeah, power dynamics? Not a fan of it. It continues to happen in the world. You don't say, don't say Hunter, and this we're all familiar with. But the pseudo patients noticed a lot of stigma and labeling. So the stigma that surrounded mental illness it's like a dark cloud. It's a lighter cloud these days, but it's definitely still a cloud. Hence our branding involves clouds and craziness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's more of a fog, but sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Actually, I like the fog better, I like that better, so it's casting. Yes, the mental illness stigma casts a shadow over the lives of the patients within the hospitals. The pseudo-patients observed how diagnostic labels such as schizophrenia, bipolar manic depressive disorder, became almost like a scarlet letter shaping perceptions of the individuals and influencing their treatment within the system. They noted how patients were often reduced to their diagnoses, diagnoses reduced to their diagnoses, diagnoses.
Speaker 2:Which one is that? Kimberly, I would say diagnoses.
Speaker 1:Diagnoses were often reduced to their diagnoses, Diagnoses stripped of their humanity and individuality.
Speaker 2:So you become what they classify you as just terrible, yeah, which is scary too, because it's like if they still did that now, I don't think we'd be where we are.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Like there's so many things that go into somebody. It's not just oh, you know you're bipolar, no, it's like okay, what's your environment, what's your you know eating health habits, like there's just a lot that goes into it. It's not like okay, give you meds for this and that's it. It's like there's just a lot that goes into it. It's not like, okay, give you meds for this and that's it. It's like there's just very it's more holistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Something else that the pseudo patients experienced was seeking out solace. So I'll explain that a little bit. Like amidst the chaos and the uncertainty of what was going on in the psychiatric ward, the pseudo patients sought solace in small moments of connection and camaraderie with other patients. They formed bonds, they shared stories, they offered support and they found a lot of strength in their solidarity. Together they witnessed acts of kindness and resilience amongst the adversity and that reminded them of the enduring spirit of the human soul, even in the darkest times. So, amongst all the bullshit that they witnessed, the patients together, I guess, bonded in trauma, bonded over. I mean, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2:I'd sit there and I'd talk to you. Yeah, I always try and put myself in these situations to just be like. I always try and put myself in these situations to just be like. What would that have been like? What would I have done? Yeah, I probably would try to connect with other people because I'd be like am I crazy or is this crazy? Can?
Speaker 1:you please tell me.
Speaker 2:But then the other thing is you are talking to other people who are mentally ill. So sometimes it's like, oh, maybe I'm just feeling this, I might legitimately go crazy. People must have their mental illnesses must have gotten worse. If it's just like, yeah, we're not going to treat you like a human, like you're a cog in a machine or whatever it was, I'd be like, oh, my gosh, I am insane. Like, yeah, I couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle that.
Speaker 2:And I see all these you know on TV or like the movies where they show psych hospitals and there's always, you know extremely mentally ill people who do need a lot of help. And you're like, oh, that's who's there and at least for me, that's what I think of. But it's like no people are there just because they're having a hard time with life. It's a trying time. They're going in there. They just want to get better and they need to.
Speaker 2:Whatever you're by yourself, like you were not talking to you, here's your meds. Like I'd get crazier. I'd be like I don't, I don't know. I mean, what would you do, kelly? Like I'd leave with more symptoms. But they like they wouldn't let you leave. Then they'd be like, okay, you got to stay here longer. You know what this is? A pyramid scheme. They get you in, they get you in, they get you in. They're like, hey, we'll help you get better. And then you come in and you're like, yes, I want to get better. But then you're like, oh, I'm getting worse, so you have to stay there longer and you pay more for your care pyramid scheme.
Speaker 2:Pyramid scheme done I mean in in this was in the like, you know, the 70s, like the early. I'm not talking now. Now it's like I think they're better. I hope that's the moral of your story. But like isn't that like a?
Speaker 1:pyramid scheme. I mean, yeah, kind of sounds like one, but are they? Were they really profiting off of patients back then, or was the government? There's a government facility.
Speaker 2:Who's paying for it? Who's footing the bill?
Speaker 1:Yeah, who's footing the bill? I don't know, because it was not like.
Speaker 2:It's definitely not a luxury, it's just like where you got sent, I guess but it also seems vaguely like a luxury where you can be like okay, now it is, but then why weren't the people who the unhoused people, all in mental institutions?
Speaker 1:because they couldn't unhoused people homeless yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 2:Isn't it politically correct, unhoused or like?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure, I don't know there's a new word, that's the first time I heard it, unhoused these, these unhoused humans. Okay, well, I don't want to just be like you know, whatever I don't want to offend. Well, they exposed the quote unquote pyramid scheme that you just so described. So, our pseudo patients. They endured days or weeks within the confines of the psychiatric hospitals. So they were there for different frames of time, but it's not like they were there for like a year or anything like that. It was brief stints.
Speaker 1:So at one point in each of their stays they reached the pivotal moment in the experiment where they had to reveal their true identities and the purpose of their presence. So, as they shed their fake symptoms, those auditory hallucinations, and stepped out of their diagnoses, like their roles and their stigmas, they confronted the hospital staff with who they were the patients. After they disclosed their true identities to the hospital staff, they were revealing the deception that they had infiltrated the institution. There was a lot of disbelief amongst the staff. They told them hey, listen, they revealed their deception, they infiltrated their institutions. So the staff was just in disbelief, they were skeptic about it.
Speaker 2:They struggled to reconcile the discrepancy between the pseudo-patients' outward appearance of normalcy and the diagnostic labels that they actually affixed to them and what they had been viewing them as In all fairness, though, if I worked at a psych hospital and somebody's like just kidding I'm a plant, I'd be like no, get back to your room, because there's people who think they're like Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 1:What bullshit are you on today, Stacey?
Speaker 2:people who think they're like what bullshit are you on today, stacey? Yeah, exactly, you're not wrong. Exactly. That's where a part of me is like, yes, but I get it. I wouldn't believe it either. Yeah, it's a good point. I don't know, unless you had paperwork and somebody came and was like hey, this is a setup, like your boss knows about whatever, but like if it's just the patient telling you oh, I'm not believing that anybody could say that oh yeah, I didn't kill that person, I just said that to get in here, like those auditory hallucinations that wound up being complete schizophrenia diagnosis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are gone.
Speaker 2:Crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, this brought a challenged authority when they came out and they said who they were. So it posed a direct challenge to authority and the credibility of the psychiatric institutions and their diagnostic practices. Hospital staff faced very uncomfortable realizations that they had been deceived. They raised questions about the reliability and validity of psychiatric diagnoses God, that word diagnoses, diagnoses Do I need to Google it? And the potential for mislabeling and the misinterpretation of behavior which, as I can't say enough, auditory hallucinations. They don't apply to everything, so let's not mislabel what's actually going on.
Speaker 2:I would get mad if I was that.
Speaker 1:You're mad on the staff right now. You are a mad. I was. You're mad on the staff right now, like you are a mad. Like on the staff of the hospital.
Speaker 2:You're upset. Yeah, like if I was a worker, because I just think what if in my like day to day job I was working with somebody and then one day they were like just kidding, I just wanted to see how well you did your job. Also, this is being reported for science and it's going to be in the history books forever? I'd be like crap. I would have tried a lot harder then.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I would have known, I would have been like oh my gosh, this is a test. Not that I don't try hard at my job, but it's like crap.
Speaker 1:I don't know, are you telling me in this position, since you are now a staff member at one of these facilities, you would have had to make attempts at justification, kimberly.
Speaker 2:I would have. I would have. I would have been like oh, I'm sorry, I have a hundred other people who have other things going on and this one person and okay, it is across the country, but didn't you say eight people yeah, eight people across in five different facilities. Okay.
Speaker 1:So no no. Was this Five different states, eight facilities.
Speaker 2:How many people, though? Was it eight, eight people? One per Okay, and was this study ever run again? No, not to my knowledge, no people. One per Okay, and was this study ever run again?
Speaker 1:No, Not to my knowledge. No, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe like something somewhat similar.
Speaker 1:Something had to be run again after this, I would assume.
Speaker 2:I would think so. I feel like I've read a book about this, but yeah, I'd be like oh, eight people, I don't know. I feel a lot of yeah, trepidation about just concluding. I mean, don't get me wrong. A lot of people are like, okay, let's just give them a diagnosis. That's the sticker, that's who they are, but also, I don't know, I don't know Well a lot of the staff didn't as well, like you're saying.
Speaker 1:So in the face of these confessions of the pseudo patients, the hospital staff scrambled to justify their actions and defend the integrity of the psychiatric system. Some of them questioned the pseudo patients motives, accused them of exacerbating their symptoms for personal gain. Others acknowledged the limitations of the psychiatric diagnosis but argued that the benefits of the treatment outweighed the risks of the misdiagnosis. So some acknowledged misdiagnosis. Some were like no, you're just doing this for personal gain. So there was justification on both sides, kind of taking a little bit of ownership and then taking absolutely no ownership and just blaming it on the facilities. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't love that.
Speaker 1:Well, they did acknowledge flaws. So despite the initial resistance, some hospital staff members eventually did fully acknowledge the flaws and shortcomings that were exposed by the Rosenhan experiment. They conceded the subjective nature of the psychiatric diagnosis and the potential for bias and error in labeling individuals with mental illness. So it was actually considered for one of the first times and the pseudo-patients' revelation prompted them to do some soul searching and introspection within the psychiatric community because as practitioners they were grappling with the implications of their findings. So some reflection, if you may. They reflected a little bit about how this experiment exposed them and what they needed to do yeah, I I'm having, because it's funny.
Speaker 2:I came into this being like, yeah, people, they're just labeling people and seeing people as these labels. But like, as you talk about this story, I just think from it a practitioner, I'm not even a practitioner, no but life.
Speaker 1:No, but you are now. You have officially taken the panel as a practitioner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like Dr Kimberly right now, like pseudo Dr Kimberly, and I'd be kind of pissed off. I'd be like, okay, cool, but right now my job is stigmatized. People don't want to deal with people who are mentally ill, don't believe it's real, whatever, this is the 1970s, so I'm dealing with like the gamut and all of these are assumptions. By the way, I don't have any sources to back any of this up.
Speaker 2:This is all Kimberly People who believe they're in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory most of the time, can't verbally communicate with me and are on high doses of drugs that we're going to find out are not good for you. But then I also have these people who are like I am sad all the time. I don't hear or see anything. That's not there, but I'm sad and I don't have many resources and I have to take care of all these people. So if I want to try and take care of all these people, I'm going to basically put a label on them so I can be like okay, depression, like you have depression. I don't have time to sit with you and be like, hey, have time to sit with you and be like, hey, let's talk about your depression. Oh, I see that it's not real. Oh, you're faking. If I was the practitioner, I'd be like I'd now question every single patient. I'd be like this isn't real. Some part of me is like did this study hurt some of these practitioners for the rest of their career?
Speaker 1:I think so. I think without a doubt.
Speaker 2:Because the thing is people already think people are faking mental illness, like, oh, you're sad today, oh, okay, you have depression. It's like, oh great. So now there's more practitioners out there questioning me and the validity of this. There's more practitioners out there questioning me and the validity of this, I don't know. I'm beginning to kind of see it from the practitioner's side. I'd be like, oh cool, this one study just destroyed what we're trying to build is a more robust mental health system. I don't know.
Speaker 1:No, you're right, that was essentially. You're just lining up with my story. Right now, all of your opinions.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:So that was essentially what you just said kind of sums up the impact of the field.
Speaker 1:The Rosenhan experiment sent shockwaves through the field of psychology and psychiatry and it prompted a widespread debate and scrutiny, which is exactly what you're debating it right now and scrutinizing it from a different angle than the patients. It challenged conventional wisdom about the reliability of psychiatric diagnosis and the treatment of mental illness, prompting calls for reform and accountability within the psychiatric system. The study itself became a rallying cry for advocates of patient rights and mental health reform. It sparked efforts to improve diagnostic practices and increase transparency and promote alternatives to institutional care, which is something we mentioned earlier like, hey, there's other things that you could be doing, so you know what about that, instead of just taking medicine and staring at a white wall. So, yeah, no, this wasn't necessarily accepted by the whole community. It wasn't like, yes, the scientific community is ecstatic that this experiment was done. No, it was scrutinized, it was debated and, like I said, it just kind of was. It seemed more for the people to like have something to stand behind, more of like an expose for people to see what was really going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I just and I think that is an important note that it's like okay, yeah, some people like get into these psych hospitals, but how are we letting people leave them? Well, back then I don't think they were.
Speaker 1:It was just kind of like stay out, You're gross in society, Now you have to come over here. Families didn't want to deal. They were just like oh, something's wrong with my son. My son is gay. Or my daughter is gay. You're mentally ill now. Goodbye is gay. Or my daughter is gay. You're mentally ill now Goodbye. There was such a lack of compassion from families and practitioners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and see, that's where it's just. This double-edged sword of this was early in the mental health stuff. It's like nobody knew what to do, necessarily and not making any of this right Like crap. Yeah.
Speaker 1:In conclusion, while the Rosenhan experiment did not lead to immediate or direct changes in psychiatric diagnosis or treatment, it did have a profound and lasting impact on the field itself. Some of the indirect changes and consequences of the Rosenhan experiment included an increased awareness of diagnostic bias, so the study shed light on the subjective nature of a psychiatric diagnosis and the potential for bias and error in labeling individuals with mental illness. Something else that came up was a focus on patient rights. I think this is incredibly important. You were just saying how do you get out of the hospital? How do you get out? How do you say I'm fixed now?
Speaker 1:So the study became a big proponent that they'd use to rally for patient rights and mental health reform. They used it to highlight the need for greater advocacy and empowerment of individuals that had mental illness themselves. So it prompted efforts to protect the rights and the dignity of psychiatric patients, including initiatives to improve informed consent procedures, enhanced privacy protections and strengthen oversight of psychiatric facilities, which I believe are all like. We discussed all of that talking me and you together in this. It's like, yeah, they need privacy, they need to be able to give consents, like you can't just punish somebody because they're not going to do what Nurse Ratched wants them to do, yeah Gosh. It also was an underlying spark for a shift towards community-based care. So the Rosenhan experiment contributed to a growing movement towards community-based mental health care. That emphasized the so you don't have to go to an institution, peer support groups and crisis intervention programs.
Speaker 2:That's good stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is good stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm happy that that kind of you know came from this yeah.
Speaker 1:So another indirect result of the Rosenhan experiment was an impact on research ethics. So the study raised ethical concerns about the treatment of vulnerable populations in research settings and the need for greater oversight and accountability in psychological research itself. It prompted revisions to research ethics guidelines, including stricter standards for informed consent, protection of human subjects and transparency in reporting research findings. We love this. Consent yes, we are human beings, like we need to have consent.
Speaker 2:But on the flip side it's hard.
Speaker 1:Oh do you want to? No, no, do it, do it.
Speaker 2:Well, I just think, like what if you can't give consent? Like, or like what if you're asking for consent from somebody who is not in right mind? And like they're like no, I don't want to go to the hospital? And you're like you are shot in the leg right now, like you have to go to the hospital, and they're like no, like there's that balance of okay, like no, I am taking over your consent. Like I think of my grandmother she had Alzheimer's and like yeah, like there's a time where that transition and it's a hard transition where, like, my mom became the person to give consent for my mom's for my grandmother's care and it's like it's that's a very like vague line of when somebody can and when somebody can't give their own consent.
Speaker 2:It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think in having that um, that shift towards the community-based care and like peer support and things like that, I think that probably would help other, like family members, understand consents and maybe a little bit more bring it, bring it to the community. But while the Rosenhan experiment, like I said earlier, did not directly lead to any legislative or policy changes, its findings and implications continue to inform discussions and debates about mental health care, diagnosis and treatment. It serves as a cautionary tale and a catalyst for ongoing efforts to improve the quality and the equity and the effectiveness of the mental health services for individuals around the world. And that is the story of the Rosenhan experiment and what it did for psychology and mental institutions.
Speaker 1:I liked that you had a take on it. That wasn't a yes, ma'am, take, like you didn't just yes, yes, yes, to death. You were like wait, wait, wait, wait. What if I was on this staff? Because that's why, like this study, or it's this experiment, sorry is debated so much, that's why it's scrutinized, that's why nothing directly came of it. But I mean it exposed things that needed to be exposed, but at the same time, was that done ethically? Yeah, I don't think that can be done today. I don't think you can do that today without a camera crew.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, seriously.
Speaker 1:And a Netflix special.
Speaker 2:I still remember I had to do a study in undergrad and it was just like I had to do a study in undergrad and it was just like. Basically, we wanted to see if the color of the word like pull or something made people more aggressive so they pull harder, whatever. But we quote unquote lied to them and said, like or study is on something else, like it wasn't that much difference. But we didn't want that to sway that, like I know the color is supposed to make me pull hard Well that's your controlled variable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we lied to them. But then we had to email everybody afterwards and say, hey, our study was about this and I almost guarantee the vast majority were like delete, who cares? But it's just interesting because, yeah, vast majority were like delete, like who cares? But it's just interesting because, yeah, now it's like no, you have to be very transparent and we were only able to quote unquote lie to them because, like, certain things were met Like you know, this didn't affect their health, this didn't affect you know, like all these things.
Speaker 2:But it's yeah, now it's like I don't, I don't think that would happen, like, yeah, I mean good, good things. But then it makes you think like, and this is a whole other tangent, but all the experiments that happened in World War II, like in Nazi Germany, like with twins and all those things, and people are like do we use this information? But it was obtained unethically. And I know that's a whole thing where it's like, yeah, technically, if this science is done well and it's good science, but it was obtained unethically, do we still use it? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't know what scientists in the community have decided, but yeah, it's things like that that make you think like oh, we definitely use.
Speaker 1:We definitely use that information. I mean, I mean probably but it's just just all of that, all this, oh god you ever catch a glimpse of any of those studies. It's just sick.
Speaker 2:No, it's upsetting it is so upsetting, dr evil or something there was a scientist that was known for doing really like-.
Speaker 1:Warbles, warbles, warbles. I don't know, joseph Mengele. Okay, where did you get Warbles from? Okay, so I think Warbles was Hitler's like PR.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Like marketer, like, essentially Like the one who ran all the propaganda and everything. And like I think he's that guy.
Speaker 1:So yeah this is Mengele. Joseph Mengele did the experiments. Yeah, yeah, I'd say that we definitely. I listened to a podcast once and there was this man who was his responsibility when they were liberating the camps was to collect all the documentation, and he said the one things that germans were good at were documenting everything. So it was just they just had there was so much, so much research, so much like just nasty documented shit, which is like great for the like war crimes trials. Yeah, no, yeah, they were your diary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's essentially it, but yeah, they also had all of that information about people. I could talk about world war two forever. It's shouldn't have turned on for me.
Speaker 2:We should just have an episode where we do nothing except talk about world war ii and like how that affected like mental health, because it just like blew up mental health for people like in a bad way.
Speaker 1:The ptsd galore. Oh yeah, call back. Yeah, it's that. It's that episode that we did that one time.
Speaker 2:That one time, that yeah. Anyway, great story, kelly, because we need to shut down World War II. But love it, hate it Thank you Need it, mm-hmm, but let's jump into Chapter 12 of how to Do the Work by Dr Nicole LaPera. We have Chapter 12, and then our next episode will be chapter 13, and then we'll be done yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:That book went really quick. It went and did it 13 episodes, 13, 13 episodes I kind of like it because it's been measuring up with, like our episode numbers. So it's like chapter 13 is going to be episode 13, but then we're going to start a new book and it's going to be confusing because 14 is going to be chapter one.
Speaker 2:It's going to be hard to figure out, especially when I have a doc that we keep track of for you, so we can do chapter one and then, you follow the little row and it's oh episode 14.
Speaker 1:It's really hard to produce a podcast. It's so hard.
Speaker 2:You have so many people helping you.
Speaker 1:I get in there and I have to label it and then I have to put a chapter in there and it's just so hard. I highly recommend podcasting.
Speaker 2:You're like, with the help of four or five people, yeah it helps.
Speaker 1:It helps when you have four or five people. It'd be nice if we could have more people. What?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, but okay, yeah. So jumping into chapter 12, emotional maturity.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I don't got none into that.
Speaker 2:As you have a little stitch character on your headphones. Actually, that's not even emotional maturity, that's just freaking cute. It is adorable isn't it. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:You'll see him, he hangs. I'm going to have him on my headset. He just hangs off the wire. He's cute.
Speaker 2:What happened to Zazu?
Speaker 1:on your shoulder, zazu, on your shoulder, zazu. Zazu is on the floor now. Oh, zazu, it's.
Speaker 2:Zazu. It's not a Zazu, no Zazu. I don't know much about Disney.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're talking about Disney. I just got an influx of some Disney critters and, yeah, she saw Zazu, and now I have a little stitch that hangs off of like my wire, and you know we're just killing it. Emotional maturity, little Disney things, emotional maturity. This room behind me just looks so mature. I got Loki on the back of my door. Then there's like a Playboy Catwoman picture.
Speaker 2:It's funny because both of us have like disney characters, but in an artistic different way, because right now I have who is this? Alice in wonderland? It is alice, right, yeah alice in wonderland, but the artist calls them not punk versions but basically just like tattooed versions hipster, that's what he calls them, hip, hipster versions of them, and it's funny because I have that in my background. We're like mature adjacent. We're mature but not exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like. How many stuffed animals do you have on your desk?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Oh, I cleaned my desk, but I have a Lego globe. I'm still there. I'm there with you. All my little stuffed animal things that I've created are downstairs, so that people, when they see me on the camera, don't automatically assume I'm a child Because I already have the chubby cheeks. I look young. I don't want people being like is she 21? Did she just graduate?
Speaker 1:And I'll be like no, yeah, I had to take it. Yeah, for work, I have to take the posters off the wall because I'm like, yeah, this is uh. Yeah, I also look like I'm 21 or 18. I think a casual 18 will just put me there casually I'm 16, I don't know I'm so young. Oh my, oh, my gosh. When I was 16, I was pretending to be 18. When I was 14, I was pretending to be 16.
Speaker 1:I was always trying to be two years older than I was and now I'm just like nah, I'm 21. I'm 18 forever. I get that feeling. I understand why there's songs about it, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Forever 21, girl.
Speaker 1:I understand why there's songs and disc and discontinued stores discontinued they're still open no, are they just online?
Speaker 2:I thought, pretty sure it's still at my mall oh, I thought that they were dead. I don't think so. No, I mean I don't know, I don't shop much in person anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't either. That's interesting. Where are we going? Oh, emotional maturity back here.
Speaker 2:Okay, emotional maturity.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, we just went all over the place. We did.
Speaker 2:We got to reel this back in. That's a fishing metaphor. Nobody knew, no one knew.
Speaker 1:okay, well, you like had a record scratch, so I was trying to put us in reverse oh, I didn't get that reference.
Speaker 2:I know you didn't anyway. Lead us, lead us. I'm stepping back, yeah, please. I feel like I have the focus today and that's not a good sign. So she says those who are emotionally immature have trouble tolerating their own emotions. They cope with anger by slamming a door or with disappointment by deploying the silent treatment. When I think of emotional maturity, I think of or immaturity, I think of children where, like, they're upset and so they scream because they don't know how to, like, regulate their emotions and deal with anger in a productive way. That's kind of what I think.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if you have any first thoughts. My first thought that immediately came to mind was I had a friend one time and she was dating this guy one time and anytime he'd get upset with her, he would just text her radio silence and he would quote, unquote, put her on radio silence and not talk to her until he was ready to not give the silent treatment anymore. It was the weirdest thing ever, like he would announce radio silence and then just ignore her until he didn't want to anymore.
Speaker 2:How old were these people?
Speaker 1:I want to say like 24. I think, he was older. I think he was a few years older.
Speaker 2:Because I was going to say, if this is like 18, like okay, yeah, like that's like young adult, like people have kids at that age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the first thing that came to mind when you said it was. You said people doing the silent treatment and emotional immaturity, and I immediately thought of that dude just doing radio silence. Just, I remember thinking like you're kidding me, you're sleeping with this dude.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that would be hard to deal with. I mean, granted, don't get me wrong, I still have those times Just ask Sean where I storm out of a room and get mad, but that's normally because and I think he kind of knows this I got to settle down one. But also just rethink about everything we just talked about and I don't want to say something I regret. So I've tried to say I don't have the mental capacity for this, because many times I'm very emotional, or like I haven't eaten or I need sleep, and it's like I know I will throw a fit, I will get mad, I will like yell or you know, just not talk to you, and that's not a productive way to do this. So it's like I've had to like draw that boundary before I go into, basically like I'm not going to talk to you anymore.
Speaker 2:You know like going into that, but it's hard. It's hard when emotions just take over, Like yeah.
Speaker 1:So I struggle with regulating my emotions. Like on a good day, like yeah, everything's regulated and we're doing great. But if I'm having a like manic depressive episode, my emotions are all over the place. I can't regulate them like I usually can. It's like some of me is in there and can still hold it back. Or it's like kind of this out of body experience where, like you see, I'm just like wait, why am I saying that? Like why am I yelling? Why am I doing that? Like this is not what I want to be doing, but like I can't help it anyway. And then comes like that's a very weird spot for me, because it's like I could walk around and it seems like I have my shit together. But then all of a sudden, when my bipolar wants to come alive, I'm fucked. My emotional immaturity just goes out the window and it's like, well, this 35-year-old would she just get to the planet? Was she just born?
Speaker 2:No, Do you have anything that you do do to almost like soothe yourself in those moments, or do you just like kind of let the emotions just go?
Speaker 1:So something to like kind of like shock I guess luck for a better word like shock myself out of like an emotional state of mind or to just get my thought process back on track to get me out of. You know, my thought process back on track, to get me out of whatever I'm stuck in is my therapists have always told me to run my hands under freezing cold water or put cold water on my face, and that's never been instant enough for me to wait for the water to get cold. That's too much. So I actually have a it's for headaches and it's like something that you pull over the top of your head and it covers your eyes and like your scalp and your forehead and it stops right above your nose and I leave that in the freezer.
Speaker 1:And so what I'll go do, like when things are getting really bad and I'm just like I can't get out of my own way is I'll go in the freezer, grab it, throw it on my head and then you know you got to take it off before you get a brain freeze.
Speaker 1:It's not too good but it, but it's true, like it literally like will shock. It shocks your system into like kind of like recalibrating, and then I could kind of get a brief moment of okay, I could think now, because if I don't do something along those lines that get me out of my state of mind, then what I do is I just need to be alone because I don't want to hurt anybody, I don't want to wake up and feel shame and guilt because of my actions. I struggle with that, but, yeah, I usually would just stay away and sometimes it's hard because sometimes I'll be on vacation with my family or I'll be in a place where I can't necessarily get away. And those are the moments where it shows, like really what this disorder is and I'm like, well fuck, like I am just an expose right now.
Speaker 2:You're like I'm a Netflix documentary waiting to happen. Yeah, I think like it's funny that you mentioned like the cold thing, because I feel like that's grounding, like where you use your senses, because when I have anxiety attacks or something or I can feel them coming on, and it's winter here in Wisconsin, which like it's always freaking winter or it's always cold, so it's like easy to just go outside. But I do that where, like I'll be in like my short sleeve shirt and I'll go outside with snow on the ground, because it's like it just it shocks the system and it's almost like I think of it as like the paddles where they rub them together and just like jolt you, it's just like something to stop your brain from overthinking and overworking. It's just like crap, I'm cold, I need to get warm.
Speaker 2:Like it's almost like you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like okay, so right now I'm, like you know, freaking out about whatever. It is like emotions, like my body, like if I get put in a situation where I'm worried about my health and surviving, then it like jumps to the bottom and you're like I got to take care of these fundamental needs because I don't have the capacity to deal with my, you know, higher up needs. That's kind of what I think, where it's like, okay, sometimes this isn't healthy and I acknowledge that, but sometimes I'll like get hungry. So it's almost like I like where you know where your like stomach hurts because you're so hungry. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll get to that place. So I can almost feel that hunger pain and I know like, okay, this is a hunger pain. It's almost like I have to recalibrate everything. So it's interesting that like you kind of have that like shock too, that like your system just needs that Like yeah, like you said, like immediate, it's not immediate enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's the hardest part, because isn't it with? I think I heard this like and I don't know if this is true or not. Once again, these are Kimberly facts. Who knows if they're actually facts, don't know if this is true or not. Once again, these are Kimberly facts. Who knows if they're actually facts? But we're like when you get angry, a chemical's released into your system, but it takes hours for that to get out of your system because this chemical's released and then it just keeps pumping through your blood and you're just like oh, I'm so angry, I want to punch the wall, I want to do whatever. Where there's like, is it emotions? There was something else that's more fleeting. So it's like you have to balance out the chemicals in your body and be like okay, this is a chemical. I need to chill, I need to, like you said, get out of the situation, because I don't want to say something or do something. I'll regret, but that's interesting. That's interesting. We're so alike, kelly, honestly, are we rocking this mental illness game?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I think we are. Yeah, rocking it. Let's say that.
Speaker 2:One thing I did, like that she said is she's like one of the major achievements because I'm all about achievements like let's be number one here of emotional maturity is learning how to be at peace with these misunderstandings or with being misunderstood. So basically you strive to have people understand you and like you get angry because they don't understand where you're coming from or whatever. You have to be okay with being like they don't understand. Like I will move forward. Like she says, most of us spend loads of mental energy trying to be understood.
Speaker 2:Our fear of being misunderstood drives our body's physiological reaction, propelling us into stress. Our stress response, in which cyclical thought patterns and I don't know how to say this egoic it's ego, icy, egoic stories, drive our behavior. The sphere binds our sense of identity with the perceived approval or disapproval of others. So we need to be okay with like being misunderstood and having other people not understand us or not understand where we're coming from, because we tie that to our sense of belonging, of being part of the group, that kind of thing. So I found that pretty interesting. So I read this and this kind of goes against what I just said the chemicals in our system. She said, believe it or not. There is a 90 second rule of emotions as physiological events, they last for only a minute and a half and I was like I'm not sure I've experienced that. I mean, yes, that like first blast of emotions, but there's still this anger that kind of just sits in you, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have notes in various places that say wait 10 minutes, or wait 10 minutes and then respond, because I know when that feeling comes on, it is instant and it is like I immediately want to start typing, because it's usually typing, not talking, or talking. Typing, because it's usually typing, not talking, or talking, yeah, and well, talking is a lot harder because that just kind of comes right out. But if it's like an email or a text like you actually get to, you can actually stop yourself. But I've waited 10 minutes, like I've walked away from the phone, I've walked away from the computer, and I just cycle and cycle and cycle and cycle, and then I'm cycling through my head like what I want to say, like what I like, how it should go down, like all of it. And then I'll just have so much confidence in myself that, okay, I can go and respond, I could say what I want to say. And then, after I say what I, what I want to say, I'm like, oh fuck.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh fuck, no, that didn't need to be there at all, that didn't need a response, it was just a misunderstanding Most of the time. That's that emotional maturity of like oh, I was misunderstood, kind of thing and it's not. Yeah, I don't know. I've waited 10 minutes and my emotions I try not to hang on to them, I let them flow through me as I've waited 10 minutes and my emotions like I try not to hang on to them, like I let them flow through me, as I've been taught, just acknowledge it's there, say hello, let it go.
Speaker 2:But sometimes they just get stuck, like it just gets stuck it feels good, like I'm not sure about you but I'm like, but I love Sean and I never want to hurt him, but sometimes, if there's a valid reason for me to be angry on, I shouldn't even say this, because he listens to these episodes, so I'm screwing myself for all future episode.
Speaker 2:But it's like sometimes I'm like I feel good about being angry, this is a valid reason to be angry and I just stew in this anger, angry Like this is a valid reason to be angry and I just stew in this anger and then it's like no, I don't want to hurt him, I don't want to like damage our relationship, but it's like sometimes it's like I'm angry and I want to be angry, Like I want a justified reason to be angry, and then like he talks and I'm like crap, that's an excellent point. Like crap, I shouldn't be angry.
Speaker 2:Like crap I was, like I jumped to conclusions and I hate that part. But like, sometimes those emotions feel good to just sit in and hang on to and it's not good, it's not, but you're so right, and I experienced that with road rage.
Speaker 1:I'm a I don't like I see, like I've been in the car with people before who have road rage constantly, I'm just like, okay, you're insane. Like you don't need to be that mad like every five seconds, like when you're driving the car, like I've experienced that before. I never get mad when I'm driving, but like I'll give an example of this. One time I pulled out of a gas station and this guy was coming. He was going like 80 miles per hour on like a 50 mile per hour road and I was like he's probably going to catch up to me by the time I pull out. But I was like, but he'll see that I'm pulling out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, a motherfucker did not care. He just kept on his gas pedal all the way up behind me and starts blaring on his horn and we're immediately at a red light. So when the light turns green, I didn't start my car. I said you want to play? Fine, we'll play.
Speaker 1:So I didn't go and I just laid on my horn and he like one way road.
Speaker 1:So he, like you know, went around me and took off.
Speaker 1:So I took off after him because I was going that way and the entire time on this one, on this like one way road, to get to the main road where we were going it's about 15 minutes I drove up his ass and laid on my horn the entire time to the main road where we were going it's about 15 minutes. I drove up his ass and laid on my horn the entire time to the point where my horn gave out and I'd have to wait. I'd have to wait for it to, I guess, refill up or something, and then I'd lay on the horn again and at first he was like you know, like fucking with me and stuff, and but then I feel like he was just like okay, this is a crazy person, like need to stop playing into the games. It got all the way to the point where we got to the main road and we're at the light to turn and I'm behind him and I know you look up in that rear view mirror. You're going to see me.
Speaker 1:So I'm all smiles and all middle fingers, just like a legit crazy person, which I am, and Kimberly, it felt so good oh it does, but I'm just like, who am I going to tell about this?
Speaker 1:I'll tell the whole podcast, apparently. But I was like I just want to tell someone what I just did. That felt so good. But I hung on to that for like 15 minutes, yeah. And as soon as we turned onto the main road he turned into the slow lane on the far right and I just blew past him. I thought we were still going to play, I was still down for more. He literally was like nope, I want nothing to do with that bitch. And you know what, If I was him, I would be the same way.
Speaker 2:I would be like I want nothing to do with that bitch that's crazy and also a little brave, because, as a woman driver not to stereotype, but to stereotype a lot of truck drivers are men, yeah, and I get scared. I'm like I don't want this person cutting me off, running me off the road, or like if they see I'm a woman and they stop my car somehow, like I don't want to get hurt. So that's where I many times like I'm an aggressive driver, maybe a little too aggressive sometimes, but when I see it's a man, I'm just like do not make eye contact and just keep moving forward because it terrifies me. Yeah, they can overpower me. I'm relatively strong-ish, but like I can't overpower a man should it come to, like you know, getting physical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And my thing is, my thing is like yeah, totally. When you get in those moments, though they're off all those cautionary thoughts, they go out the window, cause, like I'll drive around normal today and I know that everybody in this town has a fucking gun, like I know everybody like people have like guns, just like lying on their passenger seat, like I'm.
Speaker 1:It's like the thing that is always like. It's like, well, don't you never know who's gonna, who you're getting angry at when you're driving? They could just, you know, get out of their car and just shoot you in the face. That's like the thing that I think about. So that's usually like a deterrent of not being an asshole. But when I want to be an asshole, oh, I want to be an asshole. I'm going to do it 100%.
Speaker 2:You do everything you know with all your effort. Gotta respect that, yeah. Well, the next chapter we're doing is the last chapter. It's interdependence. So we'll finish that chapter, finish the book, give ourselves a pat on the back for reading a whole book.
Speaker 1:But you know we're crushing it. Yeah. Do you want to announce the next book that we're doing?
Speaker 2:no, we can do that at the next episode. Okay, we'll do it.
Speaker 1:The next episode. We'll do it. The next episode, next episode so wait what? Basically? What I learned in this chapter is that my emotional maturity is a little fucked yeah, aren't all of ours.
Speaker 2:I mean we have. The first step is acknowledgement, you know and then you gotta work on it. Yeah, whatever, but anyway, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Everybody, please, yeah, like and rate and review, subscribe and whatever, and you know you could, we're now taking, uh, we're accepting, yeah, yeah, in our how do you say we're accepting? We want to hear your two degrees We'll receive.
Speaker 1:Please text us. Yes, we want to hear about your, if you're doing any two degrees, trying to make changes in your life. So there's a link in the description of the show where it says you could text us your two degrees. No, we will not get your phone number, don't worry, that's not how it works, it just goes right into our system as a little message and then we'd see it and we'd read it on the podcast.
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Speaker 2:Isn't it not? Okk podcast?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not. Okk podcast on Instagram yes, isn't it not?
Speaker 2:okay K podcast. Yeah, it's not okay K podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm a hot mess. We need to get some food in our systems. Yeah, so just thank you for listening. Remember that when you're here, you're never alone.