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Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Welcome to the I'm Not OKK podcast. I'm Kelly Kranz and I'm Kimberly and we are not OKK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying the title again, love it, love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome, I realized.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure, because most people are probably like OKK, like that's OK, it's like KK. Most people are probably like okay, kay, like that's okay, it's like Kay Kay. But the reasoning behind it is Kimberly and Kelly, and I wasn't sure. We've never said that or put that anywhere.
Speaker 1:So do you think they put it together on their own?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know people's lives, I'm not sure they thought about it the Kay and the Kay, it's like. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's like I don't know oh.
Speaker 2:Kimberly and Kelly.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh, or like a zero the o stands off on itself too. It's like oh, period yeah oh, it's got an attitude.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, period, okay yeah, the kk kind of is like like a very you know. It's like okay, yeah, whatever kk, like you. I'm not sure about you texting kk. I once my sister, I like texted her k. She was like, just do kk, because it's like nicer.
Speaker 1:I was like, okay, a lot of people call me kk too, because that's my initials, so I get called KK a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cute, was that on purpose? Like were your parents, like we want her to have KK initials.
Speaker 1:No, they never. Well, oh, kk, well, I don't know. No, it definitely wasn't, because my mom always wanted a little girl and she always wanted her to be named Kelly, ever since she was like playing with Barbies and stuff, that's so my my dad's last name just happened to coordinate, and then my mom has her name begins with K as well, so she is also a KK now and I'm a KK.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't we we. We could have like pumped out a whole Kardashian type of deal thing, you know, but it was. It was before the times it was. You know, it was before. It was before such trashy times. Just kidding, we love the Kardashians for what they are.
Speaker 2:Yes, Reality television yeah, we love it.
Speaker 1:We love it for what it is, don't necessarily what is it called?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's fun to watch agree with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's fun to watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fun to watch guilty pleasures, definitely.
Speaker 2:So, kelly, tell me about your two degrees. How did you do this week? So you wanted to be more proactive, take more proactive measures to feed your soul and be selfish.
Speaker 1:How did that go? Yeah, I did so. I was gifted a fire pit like a little fire chimney pit, like one that could fit on my back patio, oh for your birthday.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was like who's just?
Speaker 1:giving you one Not for my birthday, for Christmas, so I've had this for months and my parents have one. Anytime I'm over there, I'm always out back like futzing with it and getting the fire going and then sitting out by the fire. So naturally I believe it was my brother, I don't know One of my lovely family members thought this would be a great gift for me, and it would be. It's something that I would say serves my soul. So I began to put it together. Yeah, I began to put it together. It's out of the box, it's in the garage and it is being assembled, but I didn't put it outside yet or get it going or actually use it yet. But I'm making moves. That's my answer for you.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's my answer. One degree but I'll take it.
Speaker 1:I'll take it. I mean, considering it's been sitting for months, I guess that's true, it is a little two degree. Like it came out. It was like like so excited, that's what. That's not what your fire pits do. Mine do that. They love that.
Speaker 2:I think you were describing the squeakiness of the styrofoam on the box when you take it out Comes out.
Speaker 1:Yeah God, I hate that noise. It's like just barely tolerable. It's like not nails on a chalkboard, but it almost is.
Speaker 2:I don't know, sometimes, because my mom's she has department 56 buildings and they all come packed in styrofoam because they're like ceramic or whatever, and like every year we have to, you know, get them out of the box. And I just love that feeling where, like they just slide off, like you kind of have to futz with them a little and then they slide off. That's just a good feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you remember the S's, like the little styrofoam S's? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were used so much more back in the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then we realized how terrible for the environment they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, they were just packing peanuts that's what they used to call them and they would just shove them right into everything packing peanuts, Everything yeah. Yeah, I like the. I like the air things that amazon puts in their boxes every now and then they, you pop that. That makes. That makes big noise. Oh my goodness, big noise. Go boom. Way better than like the. Uh, what's the other one? The bubble wrap, yeah bubble wrap.
Speaker 2:Still, they use also paper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's more eco-friendly?
Speaker 2:yeah, but what is your next two degrees? What do you want to do for your next two?
Speaker 1:well, I want to get the fire pit outside and I want to light it. I want to light it up and then I want to have a night where it's just me, out there by myself, just like decompressing from the day. Just, you know, no one else needs to be involved, like I don't need to be, like Larry, you have to come do this with me, or, like you know, like I want to be able, I want to like just sit by my fire pit by myself, legit, yeah, with you know whatever vices I want at the moment, and just enjoy the end of the day or the beginning of the day. No, no, who would have a fire?
Speaker 2:I would have a fire you would, but that's okay, that's okay. You know, I lived or my parents live in a wooded area like out of town and we would have fires whenever. And then I moved into town I sound like a townie, but it's like the city, and then you know we live in the country. There we go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was talking to my parents. I'm like, oh, yeah, I want to have a fire pit and blah, blah, blah. And they're like you need to get permission to have a fire now, Like that's a thing. And I'm like I, I mean I get it, so like the fire department aren't being called all the time or whatever, but it just sucks. I was like what we used to have fires whenever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you need to get permission unless you get a portable pit, and then you don't need permission. Really, yeah, I don't need permission to do mine. Now, if it was in the ground or if I'm burning leaves or something like that, then I need to.
Speaker 2:I mean, the city needs to know I'm burning leaves so they don't think there's a fire in my yard, kind of thing, interesting Cause I think I think Sean and I have a fire pit that, or maybe we'll register it for one, yeah, but okay, that's good to know. That's good to know. I mean, I should look at my state's laws because goodness knows, like the fire department's going to come breaking down my door and I'm going to be like, but in North Carolina, north Carolina, they do this. Yeah, and it's not illegal. Okay, good to know. Good to know. What was your two degrees? So mine was setting working hours for myself to kind of shut off. It's so much harder to do but I'm proud of myself because I made pretty good headway into it. I like was doing it, and then I had the conscious thought I was like no, kimberly, it's past, quote unquote working hours and I stopped. So I didn't fully do it, but like I'm becoming more conscious of it, which was nice.
Speaker 1:You should try saying that out loud too. That's probably so much more powerful if you're just like self-talk, like bring it outside the head, and you're just like no Kimberly.
Speaker 2:Could you imagine my partner where I'm just like on my phone and I'm like, no, I'm not working hours. He'll be like what the heck is wrong with you?
Speaker 1:And or love it and just realize this is another endearing reason why he's going to meet you at the end of the aisle.
Speaker 2:Or that's why he's like going to just take off for the hills. He's going to be like, yeah, this is too much. Like going to just take off for the hills. He's going to be like, yeah, this is too much. But either way, I'm happy that I actually started consciously seeing how much time I spend on my phone, like I've tried to be more conscious about it and say like, holy crap, I'm on, you know, this app for like a half hour. Like this is insane. So I'm hoping to continue to decrease my phone usage. But my next two degrees I'm kind of excited about because I've mentioned to you a few times because I'm always like, okay, kelly, I want to garden after this, like after we record whatever, and I'd like to go outside more. It doesn't necessarily have to be gardening, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a walk, but just to like be outside. I know in the book how to Do the Work she mentions, like just being in nature.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like just one of the things and I was like that is so easy to do and like I just have to step outside and I have a dog who loves to go outside. So it's like to step outside, and I have a dog who loves to go outside. So it's like why wouldn't I just, you know, just walk out, sit on my stoop like grab?
Speaker 1:a book, so I'm hoping to just go outside more, especially now that the weather's halfway decent.
Speaker 2:That's harder to do in winter, but it is. It is especially where you are. It's impossible, yeah, I mean it's not impossible, but it's a lot harder to do. I'm not sure it's the same either, cause like everything's dead. So, oh gosh, there's a bug in my house. Now nature's trying to find me. Gosh dang.
Speaker 1:Oh, I heard you wanted a little bit of nature. What's up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Question when, when you garden, do you garden barefoot?
Speaker 2:No, I wear off brand Crocs, but dirt gets in there, so I kind of am one with the dirt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I go between Crocs. Well, if I have to stand on the wood chips and I throw the Crocs on. But if I'm just like in the grass, like digging holes and stuff to like plant new things, like I'm usually a barefoot because I've read that too it's just like really you know super grounding when, like, your feet are actually on the earth and like you're like making connections with, like you know, plants and grass and dirt.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've heard that too. But my thing is, there's like dog poop like woven into my grass and I just don't want to step in that Like that's just something. I'm like no, but I've heard that as well. It's it's so funny Cause it's all comes back to. I mean not everything, but like biology, where it's like, okay, our ancestors, they were like outdoors all the time and you know, like I don't know, like we're kind of from nature, like it's just so fascinating that we're going back to that, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I don't know if how you like growing up is probably very similar to me. Like we were just outside all the time, yeah, like just always playing outside, rarely playing indoors. And then it's like kind of come like back again, like it's like okay, now you remember, you want to go outside. Like I literally have this formation of trees in my backyard and it is the, it's like four trees coming out of one trunk and I just look at it and I'm like that, that the perfect tree house like built up in there, like that is oh, oh like, and I'm like, ah, I get excited about it but that's good that I feel like man.
Speaker 2:We're already talking about the book, but like we, are end of that book. It was a or under the chapter. It was like you have to. I forgot the exact phrasing she used, but it was like be curious, be imaginative, what was?
Speaker 1:it. It's like get your hands dirty in the garden with your plants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just kind of becoming a child again, but yeah, I really enjoy it. It's fun being in nature and not staring at a screen. My big thing right now is like I need to stop staring at screens, because I stare at screens for so much stuff. So much stuff Like my phone will tell me like on average, I'm like on my phone four hours a day. I'm like, oh my gosh. And then guess what, the other time I'm like at least at least three hours watching TV. I'm like that's a large majority of me being awake is watching a screen and that's scary. So I'm trying, just trying to be more cognizant that I'm making this decision to watch a screen or you know whatever. So then maybe eventually I can change it. But nature helps with that because there aren't really screens in nature.
Speaker 2:There's not, there's not, it's just stays in your back pocket or inside, cause I don't want to crack it or like drop it or sit on it, true, yeah, anyway, well, let's jump into my story because I'm excited. I told you the topic previously and originally I was going to do so. The topic is cults. Originally I was going to do a specific cult, but then I started looking into them and I was like this I love cults, they're so fascinating to me, but I think more in the mental health sphere. I look, I'm looking at and discussing the psychology of cults or like how people get into them. You know the mental effects that can have on them, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:But are you going to name drop cults, like, are you going to name drop, like any of the cults?
Speaker 2:Well, there, are some examples in here, but, kelly, I also want you to help me out here. If there's like a cult that you're like, oh yeah, that sounds like this cult or whatever, because both of us love those documentaries, love hearing about them.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating. I find it fascinating. The human psyche how it can be manipulated, broken down and just rewired just through simple actions and just behaviors and it's just gosh. I really fell into a hole with cult documentaries about, I want to say, a month ago, and no, it was like two months ago, it was just nonstop it was just nonstop after the next, after the next, and then it was just so much. After a while I felt indoctrinated to all of them. It was just like that's about right.
Speaker 2:Do you ever watch something and you're like, oh, I would have joined that cult. Like cause sometimes yeah, I'm like, oh, they could have got me. And that's hard because I'm like, oh man.
Speaker 1:I could have been murdered. The cult NXIVM. I could see like my mom being like let's go there for, like you know, they have a seminar and we'll learn some things, and yada, yada, yada. And I could see us showing up, I could see us taking the bait and like signing up for the whole course, and then I wouldn't know where my mind would go from there. I don't know if it would be like we've got to get out or we've got to stay. I think the two of us would have just gone all the way in without even knowing what we were doing, because it's just that the way that they modeled their indoctrination, yeah, was it was after. A business was business. It was. You know, it wasn't anything like sexual or this or that until you got later into it.
Speaker 2:But well, we can actually talk about nexium, because I was going to cover nexium but then I didn't want to get too into the cults because then that's not what we're here for. We're here for the mental piece of it. So I'm trying to like tease myself out of just jumping into the cult and just dissecting everything and looking more at the mental piece. So, to start off, sources, utpbedu, so that's a university Masterclass and Very Well Mind, and all these are com or, except the educational one is EDU.
Speaker 2:Okay, anyway, so the word cult comes from Latin, cultus, which it's always Latin, an ancient word encompassing the concepts of adoration, education and cultivation. So it used to be a catch-all term for people who are just devoted to something. But then in 19th century it evolved to mean an unorthodox group of zealous and eccentric believers. So more recently it became to be known as a cult as we know it. So this definition from one of the sources was a religious or quasi-religious group characterized by unusual or atypical beliefs, seclusion from the outside world and an authoritarian structure. Cults tend to be highly cohesive, well-organized, secretive and hostile to non-members, which, yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, if we know, if you've heard about one cult you're like yeah, yeah, if you're not a member, honey, you don't get the tea, honey honey.
Speaker 2:So jumping into characteristics of a cult, like I just described. So authoritarian control. So they want their members to depend on them, like on the main leader. They want the members to feel like they cannot live without this leader and the beliefs that this leader is kind of projecting go with that worship. So it's kind of just they're all controlling, all consuming in these members' lives. There also is extremist beliefs. So the members will have, or there will be, these extremist beliefs and normally they don't come out the gate. They're like this is the beliefs. It's like a slow progression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a nest egg, it just keeps going peeling back and so it's too late. A Russian, a Russian doll, russian doll, aggression, yeah, but like a nest egg, it just keeps going peeling back and so it's too late. And you really? A russian, a russian, russian doll? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's like a nest egg.
Speaker 2:now we're talking like freaking like wealth, wealth management where are we going okay, yeah yeah, but yeah, a russian doll.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't know what you're in until it's the very end, and then it's too late.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then yeah, they also with these extreme beliefs. They can't think otherwise. Like, even if they thought it was an extreme belief, you can't question it because you know the authoritarian leader is like no, like you know, you might be expelled from the group. So another characteristic is isolation from society. So once a new member joins, normally there's a lot of love, bombing, welcome to the group, a lot of good things, people are nice and whatever. But then in doing that they try and isolate you from your friends and family. So it's like you don't need friends. Where are your friends? You know your family isn't helping you on this journey, all these things. So this kind of helps with mind control for the leader because they're already like in this group and it's almost like a group think situation where it's like okay, we all believe the same thing.
Speaker 2:We're just hyping each other up on this insanity. So another characteristic is veneration of a single individual. So in most cases there's one person who's in power. I know there are a few cases like Heaven's Gate. There was like Doe and Ray. Was it Doe and Ray? Or?
Speaker 1:something like that. Yeah, I believe Doe I can't remember which one was which, but one passed away and then the next one took their beliefs, like to the next level. Yeah, okay, she's going to be in the spaceship, but that's going to come back and that's going to get us, and she never would have wanted them to commit suicide in the way that they did. So, like, yeah, that cult took a turn, of interesting turn after she passed away. That's all cult. But yeah so that had two.
Speaker 2:NXIVM, it was Keith Raniere, but then there was also Nancy Salzman, but I watched the documentary with, like, nancy Salzman and she wasn't really in on the cult stuff. I mean, there was still some stuff she did, but Keith Raniere was the main leader. But in most cases there is like one individual who is this ruler leader, all knowing type person.
Speaker 1:And Nancy was like his kind of like henchman. So like how you're saying like to kind of isolate someone who joined, like if there was friction, like there was. There was someone who joined India and her mother. Both went there together and India's mother said I this is weird, like let's get out of this. And India wanted to stay. So Nancy started to tell her like your mother doesn't support you, she doesn't support this journey Started to turn her into the bad guy. Therefore, she would no longer listen to her mother's opinion. And there's tapes and you can literally see Nancy doing that to her. And during the seminar that they were there, they separated them, they weren't allowed to be in the same groups, they weren't allowed to be with each other during the seminar. It's very, very particular, yeah, very particular behavior. So, yeah, nancy didn't know.
Speaker 2:Okay, I mean there were certain things like she didn't know about the sex part of it, like that part she didn't know.
Speaker 1:So she says we can go forever because her daughter was literally one of them.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I guess it's true, yeah, but one thing that I've seen too, is where they break you down. Like they break you as an individual, you and your opinions and who you are, and like sometimes like the respect that you deserve, like they take it all away and then this group builds you back up and is like gives you, you know, that love and that care. And one thing that also this isn't a characteristic, but it's kind of why do people join a cult, things in life like who have this kind of open ended? I don't know what to believe, I don't know who I am. So they join these groups that are like I'm telling you who you are and because they're like receptive to it, they become it and I'm not even I mean, I haven't been in a like stereotypical cult or like any cult that I know of.
Speaker 2:But I mean, sometimes you could say, like the cult of reality TV or something like that. But I just like it must just feel good in your psyche to be like somebody is telling me what, like how to be, and it feels healthy and it feels like we're doing good and like I want the world to be peaceful or whatever. It is Cause many times these people are like yeah, I didn't think I'd ever be in a cult, like I thought I was mentally stronger than that and it's like anybody can be in a cult. It's crazy. It's crazy. But anyway, going back to characteristics, there's zero tolerance for criticism or questions, so nobody can really critique what the leader is saying. Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget A lot of these cults just take all the money from their members and like, yeah, like NXIVM where they were, like there were two heiresses to some huge company and like spent so much money. I mean they got the Dalai Lama. To like, yeah, the Seagrams.
Speaker 1:The Seagrams yes. Heiresses yeah. And then the Dalai Lama didn't want anything to do with him. After all of that, yeah, no, and the Dalai Lama didn't want anything to do with him after all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no kidding, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just that's yeah. Yeah they had a ton of money and then they don't, and all of their cult members were still working their full-time jobs and then doing they were never sleeping. I'm sure you're going to bring up sleep deprivation very soon.
Speaker 2:And if I don't, please bring it up again, deprivation very soon and if I don't, please bring it up again. But another thing unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions, so kind of, like you said, like oh, your mom is like persecuting you and whatever. A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave. Abusive members, I think financially, sexually, mentally, physically, just across the board Followers feeling they are never able to be quote, unquote, good enough. A belief that the leader is right at all times and a belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing truth or giving validation, which, if you think, like a lot of them, are not the almighty but like, for example, keith Raniere, where it was like they called him Vanguard or whatever.
Speaker 2:And he was like oh, just so intelligent and he like was able to solve an equation that blah, blah, blah. And it's funny because, like on Wikipedia not one of my sources, but I still look and it was like he used to work in, like the sales thing that the FCC thought was a pyramid scheme or something like that You're just like, is he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like this was like his second or third scheme that he set up and it's just like. No, he didn't even graduate college or nothing like that. All he would do is just he knew how to talk.
Speaker 1:Like and he would just talk circles, if you ever listen to anything he says. But you're talking about how they had to call him Vanguard, right To like, you know to be like, oh, this is my leader, kind of thing. And then there's also mother God. They had to call her mother God, like and believe, like this is this is my leader, like she's going to kind of, yeah, the names that they come up with.
Speaker 2:And many times it's like the leader. I think the leader, if the leader doesn't choose it, he like infiltrates it to other people to call him that. So it's like, oh, I didn't choose this, Like they want to call me. And it's like, okay, Yep, but okay. So different types of cults. There's this resource had four different types of cults doomsday cults exactly what it is like preparing for the end of the world. The example was Branch Davidians, who stockpiled firearms and explosives in Waco, Texas, to prepare for the apocalypse, and that led to the infamous standoff.
Speaker 2:So that's an example of doomsday political. This is just like very political right or left groups. It becomes all consuming and I haven't really seen many political cults in the documentaries because it almost has become a norm. Qanon, oh, I guess. I guess I never considered that a cult.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's the first one that comes to mind, that maybe.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like politics are so ingrained in our culture that it's like oh, they're just very far leaning, they're just a cult in themselves, like yeah, very true. Then there's religious cults. This is like spiritual beliefs. There's a lot of this in many cults, where it's like okay, we believe in something greater, or this is, you know, christ incarnate, or something like that. And then there's also cults that are like offshoots of other religions, like what is it? Scientology? Oh, I was going to say FDLS. Okay, is that it polygamy? Warren jeffs that cult.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, no, I'm not familiar. You're not familiar with warren jeffs?
Speaker 2:no, oh my gosh, you have to watch the documentary. That's the first one that I'm just like I'm not familiar there maybe that's where I cut it off is it.
Speaker 2:It's not eat sweet, pray, sweet, pray sweet no, it's like gosh, we're freaking, butchering this documentary. But no, it's this guy who, like his dad, created this offshoot, like because they believe in polygamy, so like a lot of wives. I think it's an offshoot of Jesus Christ, latter-day Saints, I think. But basically his dad created this and it's like you need a lot of wives to get to heaven. Well, his dad had like I don't know 60 wives and he was in his eighties and he's having like 13 year old wives.
Speaker 1:It's like some Game of Thrones shit yeah pretty much. That doesn't need to be happening anymore. Stop spreading your seed. No one wants it Seriously.
Speaker 2:So then he dies and his son basically just takes over war in Jeff's and like kind of goes crazy with marriages and marrying people and there's like pictures of him kissing his like you know young wife, like I don't know how young they got, they were not legal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like he would have sex with them. You know that kind of thing. So he he eventually like he was on the run, and then they found him and he's been arrested. I want to say life in jail. I don't know, though, but people still like worship him, like they keep a picture of him in their house and they worship him, and it's I don't know. It's kind of sad, because it's just like oh my gosh, he abused you. And there are survivors who talk about it. They're like it was not okay, but anyway, anyway gosh, just see, get me talking about cults.
Speaker 2:I can't. This is why I need to focus on the psychology of it. So that's more religious cults and then last one, sex cults. So this involves like sexual abuse. Some focus on sex as their primary functions, like nexium. When it got like sexual, we're like gosh the whole time.
Speaker 1:He's like weird he's like we're not a sex cult, like now we're being branded as a sex cult and meanwhile it's like yeah, he was like sleeping with a lot of people a little bit, yeah, yeah but I feel, like a lot of them, there is some type of like sexual abuse or I think it was waco where, like, was it waco?
Speaker 2:where, like, he was the only one, the leader was the only one allowed to have sex with their wives?
Speaker 1:Yes, there were partners and they were like fine with him having sex with their wives because they wanted to have the spawn of like God kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so strange to me.
Speaker 1:I just I've seen a couple get interviewed and how he was just like yeah, no, it was just fine.
Speaker 2:Like I gave permission, I would like go to my partner and I'd be like I'm sorry, what I mean? No, thank you no but then.
Speaker 1:But then this woman wanted like those precious kids yeah, that I think we're gonna start start the new world or something along those lines. I don't know godspeed.
Speaker 2:But jumping back to why do people join a cult? So many of these people have a desire for meaning and community um like I said, they can have troubled backgrounds, difficult fitting into society.
Speaker 2:They want to escape something like an unhappy life, unhappy situation. They want to feel that acceptance, feel like they belong to a group. They give some examples, such as teenage runaways, drug addicts, abuse survivors. If they're dealing through one of life's turning points, like death of a loved one, a breakup, mental health issues, anything that makes you feel like you're not. Quote, unquote the norm. It's like no, come to us, we accept you Like, we bring you in. So that's kind of where they find people who are looking for meaning or looking for belonging.
Speaker 2:I feel that yeah, I feel like everybody wants to belong, and especially if you're dealing with like something that's kind of shaking your life a little, okay, I would look at it as an escape.
Speaker 1:You mean, I could drop everything and not think for a while and, like you guys will just like tell me what to do. Okay, like that sounds like. That sounds like heaven in some situations, until you wake up from it and you're like, oh gosh, I've had no autonomy in like six months. What have I been doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Like. Is this the life that I want to be living?
Speaker 2:But yeah, they sell it so well Like oh, we will provide food and you'll be able to work in the community and we're building. You know, whatever it is, and honestly, some of these at the beginning sound great. I'm like crap. It would be so easy. I mean, in some cases, like some people might say, society at large is a cult where it's like have to buy the house, have to get the job, have to have the kids. You know, you know how it's like, you know how I feel about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do believe when you put it that way, I like it. I like it a lot. It is kind of like a cult, y'all in a motherfucking cult, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, but it's kind of true because it's like do we subscribe to this? It's the quote unquote norm for our community and our society. So when you go outside the norm you feel like you're expelled from the group. It's interesting when you begin to tease apart what a cult is. It's like you are just following a list of things that somebody else wants you to do Without even knowing it. Yeah, and like originally it sounds great. But then, like six months later, you're like, is this what I want? But sometimes you don't even get the chance to say is this what I want, cause you're just so enmeshed in it and you're like, okay, my family and friends are here.
Speaker 2:If I leave, I have no family and no friends, you know, so just interesting. So, like I said, love bombing the new members to really get them, to make them feel like they belong, to begin to give them that meaning and that connection with other people. Separate people from families, friends jobs, even. Separate people from families, friends jobs, even. Um, I know like for uh, next time, you said like, okay, people still had their jobs and they did, but a lot of these people became like owners of, like nexium offshoots, like in different areas.
Speaker 2:They did like. They begin to be like a teacher, even though it's like unpaid you. You know all those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they run their own centers completely for free.
Speaker 2:Which is insane. Yeah, things like that. They slowly remake the cult, remakes these people's identities so it suits the group better. So they'll probably be forced to surrender money, belongings, sometimes bodies, to the cult's leader and other members. So once again, it's like they tear them down to build them back up the way they want them to be built. There are cults where new members marry people they've like just met, which is just bananas to me. Granted, in some cultures, you know, arranged marriage is a thing, but normally there's like a family, you know, like.
Speaker 1:so like there's some credibility.
Speaker 2:This is just like hey Bob just joined the cult, you're going to marry him.
Speaker 1:It's like oh, gosh, and that's how we'll secure your stay with Bob.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but it's like once again, that sense of belonging. You're like somebody wants to marry me. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big ticket.
Speaker 2:Yeah, once again they may use punishment, deprivation, other tactics to wear people down. I know in cults I've seen where, like people get locked in rooms if they're not, you know, obeying things, don't get food or water, are physically tortured, mentally, like just abused or manipulated so much. Here comes in the sleep deprivation again. Sleep deprivation, yes, where it's like you don't have the mental cognition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to take it away from you. Yeah, limited food, limited sleep, and then you're just like, exist, existing on that on a regular basis, like, and then you just have one person that's just talking at you all the time and then your group think all the time, and then yeah, it's so easy to fall into like you can't think other things when you don't have basic human needs being met like food, water and sleep.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's completely a manipulation tactic, but it's, yeah, also messed up. Many of these like fully indoctrinated members. They do things that they never thought they would do if they were outside the cult Like. So people who have kind of come out of it. They look back and they're like I can't believe I did that. Like, if you told me to do this now, I wouldn't do it. But it's like because you're in this thing, you do it Like in NXIVM, where there was women who were branded and like other women held down the woman being branded. And if you walked up to like you or I and been like, will you hold this woman down while she becomes branded, kind of against her will, I'd be like, um, no, like I would call the police, yeah, but like, because you're in this kind of group where everybody's doing it and like, will people know if, like you do it like maybe it can just be this one time, but then you get desensitized and you're like okay, let's just keep doing it?
Speaker 1:This seems to be the norm here In that documentary, the conversations that these women are having. They come up with the idea of a brand. They're all talking in a circle, without Keith Raniere, about what they're going to do and then on you know, I'm one of the late night walks. Like Keith tells Alison, alison Mack, like you know, yeah, maybe make the brand, like you know, have my initials in it, and like you know, but, but you can't really tell type of thing. So that's, that was his play on there.
Speaker 1:But just listening to these women, and it's just so casual for them, it didn't sound like there was any malice in it whatsoever, it was just like it was a privilege and they all were ready to do it and they were honored to do it to other people. But they wanted to make it more ritualistic and they're like, well, let's make sure we hold them down, let's make sure, before we do something, we say a specific sentence or something like that, that, that like we start the ceremony with. Like they, they all thought it was just a new thing, a normal thing, and like just to think, like yeah, they're all. Like I can't believe I had that conversation. Well, not all of them, but you know most of them are like I can't believe that that was a thing. But it's just. When you listen to those tapes there's no malice. It just it doesn't sound like they want to hurt other people. It just sounds like what they think they're doing is completely right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the issue where, because they've been so brainwashed that they just don't know right from wrong anymore, because it all seems normal and the leader approves of it. And the leader seems to be like the judge and the you know president of their life, that if they're like okay, he's okay with it, let's do it, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this will make them proud, you know okay with it, let's do it.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, this will make them proud. You know, yeah, exactly, exactly, and it's with the whole nexium documentary and all of this. So I think keith ranieri, because for the sex trafficking, because I think he brought women over state lines or something, india, yeah, so, like with the intention of like he did it through the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he did it through the other women, like he never touched things himself, so like that was one of India's stories is she was actually going to be tried for sex and she can be up for sex trafficking because she brought women across boundaries, but the intent to have sex with Keith Raniere.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't even even.
Speaker 1:I don't even remember that but she has her whole documentary. I highly recommend that you watch it okay, well, obviously I have to now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but just so. I think he's in jail for like 100 plus years or whatever but, part of me it's so I think he knowingly did this stuff, like he knowingly had these conversations. I mean, yes, you can kind of brainwash yourself into thinking certain stuff, but he knew what he was doing. The fact that he had like a pyramid scheme, that's how he like started out his professional career. It's these other women, or like that were brainwashed like Alison Mack and men.
Speaker 1:He had men along his side too, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're just thinking about the women victims. Like there were men in here who served this man and it took them a while to wake up and once they did, they were just I can't believe it. They couldn't believe that they called this person their best friend, that they served in a group that was of all men and it was for men to save women or something like that, and it just preached all of these really highly sexist principles for males. But they all thought it was something that was great. And as soon as he's out of it and the other guy comes out of it, they're like what the fuck was that? Yeah, why would we think that's a good idea?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the thing is it's hard for me to justify those people that were brainwashed than being convicted Because part of me is like they were brainwashed, than being convicted Because part of me is like they were brainwashed. They didn't necessarily know what they were doing was wrong. I don't know. That's something where I still haven't really formed my opinion. Just because it's like, yes, if you abused somebody sexually, okay, you deserve to be punished, but if you were doing that under duress or under direction from somebody you believed was your God and who might abuse you if you didn't, it's like crap, Because the mind is so powerful you can make yourself believe whatever to get through this situation. And that's where part of me is like with these cults, like these people who kind of helped the cult, do they deserve the punishment, or is it just like they were all in this terrible space because they mentally were manipulated? You know?
Speaker 1:I think most of them are all victimized. And then there's always got to be someone else in there that's on a power trip, got to be someone else in there that's feeling good about the power. I mean it's power. And once you get up to the top and you're next to the top of the cult leader and you're feeling that power, I mean eventually you get corrupted too. I mean I mean eventually you get corrupted too. I mean I have opinions about the women of NXIVM that they all rolled over, they all pleaded, they all said Keith was guilty and they all pleaded out and they got really low jail sentences or no jail time at all. So some of them did serve. They had five years and they were let out in two and I think that had to do with the fact that they were victims, but you still did something wrong like you still you still shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 1:But then there's other ones where it's just like, yeah, no, like you, you, you, you did it too. Yeah, you did it right next to him. And yeah, yeah, that's where her or you did it right next to him, or her or he did it right next to her. Lots of hers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an equal opportunity offender.
Speaker 1:The cult life is very equal, very very equal.
Speaker 2:But that's a sticking point for me, where, especially with everything mental health related, where there are unhoused people who have mental illness and then they might like kill somebody, but it's because they were so mentally ill and unstable and it's like, yes, murder is not right. But there's also, like this huge thing in our society where it's like, well, we don't take mental illness seriously or you know, we could get into the healthcare, where it's like it's not accessible to everybody. You know that kind of thing. And yeah, I digress, gosh, I could just anyway. One thing so, before I go into the lasting effects, one thing that I find fascinating, or found fascinating.
Speaker 2:So the Jones cult, I don't know, jonestown, jonestown, so the drink the Kool-Aid. So I found that this is where, like, it's so dark and so twisted. So they had them drink the Kool-Aid, but I guess they had the children drink it first. Them drink the Kool-Aid, but I guess they had the children drink it first. So then the parents basically wouldn't want to live because their children, they saw their children basically die and it's like, okay, that's super messed up. And then also it was a painful death. I don't exactly know the description of you know what, how they died, but it's just like it wasn't even an easy death. Like why would you do that to people If you're like, okay, we're going to do mass suicide, whatever, which isn't okay, but why would you make them Mass suicide, whatever? Yeah Well, I don't want to like make light of it Like oh yeah, just another cult thing.
Speaker 1:What's a little mass suicide between a group of people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's just like. It's just so messed, like it's so twisted and so dark and some of these leaders, it's like they don't even do that. They'll, just like you know, commit suicide with a gun or something. And it's like because you knew the suffering that they would go through. Like it's just so messed up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it always has to escalate to such a point Like, like the power just gets so much and it's like, okay, I can't take this any further. This is this, is it we're going to now. The belief is we're all gonna drink cyanide and call it a day, and like I've read, read and heard, I guess you'd call them reports of the aftermath, the aftermath.
Speaker 1:I guess you call them reports or scientific articles, these scientific articles that I read in my spare time, yeah, on entertainment websites slash BuzzFeed. But one of the main things was that the people of Jonestown, they were just horrified because they could tell immediately that they gave their children the poison first, just by the way that they were laid out and just the bodies just piled on top of each other.
Speaker 2:That's so sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they said it was just incredibly sad, but all of those people believed in one thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but if you, I mean belief, is a strong thing, it's so strong.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, it's so strong, it's so strong, and we have to say that it's not. Yeah, it's so strong, it's so strong, and we have to say that it's not. Manipulate isn't a bad word, like cause. You know, we, we manipulate things in our daily lives. I don't know if I've ever said that on here, but like I don't want to say that like wow, people are so manipulative, like easy to manipulate, but when we are in those positions like you were going through earlier and we're looking for something like, that's when we are our most vulnerable. So in a sense, yes, we are very easy to manipulate when we're just completely vulnerable, looking at the sky for like what now?
Speaker 2:What now? Yeah, okay, I mean sure you do that, kelly, not everybody, but yeah, no, but it's like, why do scams work? Because people want to believe. They want to believe. Okay, I pay $5,000. I can get, like you know, a giant house or whatever. I can't think of something right now, but it's just like it's you want to believe it so badly that you're willing to at least try. And that's where, yeah, I'd love to be like I would never, but never. But I'm like I might, I could be in one now and don't know, like you know, like I sometimes they just sound appealing.
Speaker 1:I'm just like. I'm like, oh, I could just like kick off my feet, like, and just not. Not that I have to do anything, but just just seems appealing. There's an appealing aspect.
Speaker 2:Yes, for sure you don't have to think in many of these cases it's like okay, I will tell you what to believe. It's like okay, you mean, like you make all the hard choices and I'll just sit here and live my daily life. Okay, yeah, here, take my money. It's man. Honestly, if there was a cult filled with dogs, all my savings would go to them. I would just be like, please, let me join. Like have you ever seen the Island of like dogs or something there's like in a different country?
Speaker 2:it's just a ton of like rescue dogs or whatever I'm like, okay, that's where I want to go, like that's where I would live and that my cult dogs like I would. I would do things for these dogs like I. I mean nothing bad, bad, but like okay would you commit murder for the dog?
Speaker 1:okay?
Speaker 2:no, maybe not murder would you commit murder for. Walter, that would be hard If I was battling somebody like oh my gosh, have you ever seen the video where it's like a bear comes? I think it was a, maybe not a bear, it was a like huge animal coming to like eat this big dog. And the owner fights off the animal.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen that.
Speaker 2:I mean I have to. I have to take stock of my life and be like would I do that? Would I die trying to save my dog? Because I know he'd die trying to save me. Kelly, I don't know, I can't even think about that. It will make me too sad, okay, okay. Oh my gosh, why did I even bring up dogs Now? I'm going to be obsessed all day, but anyway, okay, let. Oh my gosh, why did I even bring up dogs Now? I'm going to be obsessed all day, but anyway, okay, let me finish this off. Lasting effects so you get out of a cult. There's actually therapists that can help people come out of a cult, but extreme identity confusion, panic and anxiety, attacks, depression, psychosomatic symptoms like headaches, backaches, skin problems. There's anger, guilt and shame, decision-making dependency, fear and phobias, sleep disorders, eating disorders, fear of intimacy and commitment, distrust, grieving the loss of friends and family, delusions, paranoia, loss of life meaning or purpose and PTSD. So everything you went into the cult for you're not going to have that back.
Speaker 1:Ten how that affects the lasting effects of people and how their mental health can like be kind of turned sideways without them knowing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, just all very interesting yeah, anyway super interesting so that's me, that's my story, I'm sticking with it I loved it.
Speaker 1:I loved it, thank you. You have to say that, yeah, but there is the two, the cults that we talked about the most that kept coming up nexium, I believe that documentary is on. I want to say hbo max the the Vow it's called the Vow. Yeah, it's very good, highly recommend it. You could really see the cult tactics and what people do. And then even when two people are best friends and two people are married and one person leaves the cult and the other person stays in and does not leave until evidence comes up is like what happened to my wife and then comes home. So, like you, you really get to see like the psychology behind it all. And then when people come out, how, how like open their mind is.
Speaker 1:So in the documentary you learn about India, but she's not covered that much. Her mom protect her, it's mostly her mother and then I believe her mom protects her towards the end of the interview, like you don't find out kind of what happened with her. But she she's so brave and she has her own documentary. I'm not sure exactly what it's called, but I believe I found it on Amazon prime and I like I bought it there for something.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure where you could stream it, but India's story was very, very interesting because she was the one who was separated from her mother. She is like the everyday woman. You could just look at her and see yourself in her and you can be like oh, wow. But then you also get to see which is lovely about it. You get to see the aftermath. You get to see how she healed and what became of her, while, as the NXIVM documentary ended, it just ended in like jail sentences and this and that, but this was like oh, wow. You get to see the hope that somebody has and like where her life is now. So, anyway, those two I highly recommend, in conjunction with what you talked about today, which was so much fun, because you know I love cults too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you want to cover a specific one in the future, please, by all means. I just I couldn't. I was like there's just so much in this that, yeah, I could talk for hours about it. So I tried to be like, okay, high level, high level, psychology, mental of cults, ready to go to the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, take me, take me away. Where I always heard it could be Is that. It Is that a song I heard it could be? Is this Backstreet Boys? Nope, can't be.
Speaker 2:We can't afford the copyright.
Speaker 1:I'm like nope, it can't be, it is those this is Take Me Away.
Speaker 2:It's definitely backstreet boys. I can see them, okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I can see them like like their shirts fluttering.
Speaker 2:They always wear very loose clothing okay, that's a weird memory to have of them. I was so young I was barely even a a baby when they came out. I'm just just such a young person.
Speaker 1:All right, my old, my old ass yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is how to do the work by Dr Nicole LaPera. We are on chapter 11.
Speaker 1:Reparenting and, unlike what I thought it was yesterday, your parent is not about to come back into your life and reparent you. You are going to reparent yourself, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have to do the work. We were almost there on lining up with words one of these days.
Speaker 2:So this was. I always hate this because, like you have to think about your parents and it's like my parents were great parents. But she think about your parents and it's like my parents were great parents. But she even says in here she's like for all those parents reading this chapter and like worrying about your kids, she's like take a deep breath. You won't be perfect. They will have some kind of something that they need to reparent themselves on, but it's like we're human, so I'm. I tried to go in with that kind of mindset of it's not that my parents are wrong, it's just the way I took in stuff and how I was treated and interpreted this stuff, and that's why there's certain things I need to repair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's a crapshoot when we're younger, like our parents, like, yeah, we have books now. But even, like you know, when I become a parent one day, it's going to be a crapshoot, like I don't know the damage I'm going to leave on my child. I'm going to try not to, but one day I might snap and, like you know, deny a snack or something, and that might be, that might be a triggering event forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fair, my kid might then think I can't snack and I'm not allowed to snack, my mom, my mommy thinks I'm not a snacker, sure, but an introduction to reparenting. Essentially, like you were just saying, even the most well-intentioned parent figures don't always give us what serves us, because meeting all of someone's varied and unique needs all the time is almost impossible. So, yeah, they should not blame themselves ourselves. The tools to meet our needs. When we reparent, we begin by learning how to identify our physical, emotional and spiritual needs, and then we practice noticing the conditioned way we've gone about attempting to get those needs met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually have the next portion to highlight where it's like. Many of us find that in adulthood we often embody critical, interparent, so like denying the reality, rejecting our needs, choosing the perceived needs of those around us over our own, and then guilt and shame replace our intuitive voice. Yeah, it's funny because a lot of this is just like acknowledging that what you feel or felt as a child is valid, and I always think the one thing I think about is like okay, like you think is children, are, you know, clear, conscious? Like you know, whatever, Like you have to remember, at least I'm thinking I'm like kids lie. When kids learn about lying and get away with lying, there's certain stuff that I'm just like how do you do that as a parent? I mean, I don't know, I'm not a parent, but like knowing that they actually need that versus them lying about actually needing that. Like if somebody's like oh, I saw a starfish in the sky and you're like no, you didn't.
Speaker 1:You can't say that to a little kid. He's like you did not, Are you?
Speaker 2:three years old, but it's like you know, like what, how do you do that? So it's, I mean, coming from that, I'm just like that's gotta be hard to be a parent and be like, okay, what is your reality and what is you like. But this chapter doesn't cover that, it's just a random Kimberly thought.
Speaker 1:I like random Kimberly thoughts. They're the best, the best. So you brought up you have like the wise parent inside, so like that is. That's also something that you need to develop when you're reparenting. She says to develop your wise inner parent, you want to learn how to trust yourself. And then in parentheses it's kind of a big like footnote there. Maybe for the first time in your life, yeah, I know it's like okay, I feel called out. I guess I don't trust myself all the time.
Speaker 2:It's scary to actually think about how little you like trust yourself, like yourself, believe in yourself. It's just like oh gosh, why am I such a better cheerleader for everybody around me except myself?
Speaker 1:Right, that's something that I say to myself sometimes, that I think about. Like if, say, you were to come to me and you'd be like I'm going through this, that and the other thing, and then I'm saying words at you or to you, comforting words about this, that and the other thing, I'd probably give you a hug. Meanwhile I'm sitting there and I could give you all that positive talk, but my self-talk fuck the positivity. Where the fuck is that? It's?
Speaker 2:not there.
Speaker 1:I would never say those things to myself and that's something she says in here is it'd be helpful to begin a new habit of speaking kindly to yourself, as if you were dealing with a child in pain, versus probably being critical and guilt and shame, like she said earlier in the chapter. But this one, she says I like this. Each day you can begin to ask yourself the question what can I do for myself in this moment? And she said the more you do this, the more it will become an automatic response to the world around you that will reconnect you to your intuition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One thing I try and do like, if I'm talking to friends and you know they have a situation in their life, I'll say what would you say to me if I came to you with this problem?
Speaker 2:And sometimes that adds clarity because it's like oh, if it was somebody else, like, oh, should I take this job or should I take that job? And you're like, if somebody was telling me, like, sometimes the answer becomes obvious. Where you're like, oh, like, I've done that with people in relationships, where I'm like, imagine I came to you with this, what would you say? And not necessarily that it's right or wrong, either way, but it is almost getting outside yourself and like being like okay, why would I say that to myself? There's one thing I think people I've seen like on Instagram or something, where people say give your inner voice a name, so you can be like oh, come on, karen. Or like you know, christine, stop saying that, you know. So you can almost yell at your inner voice to be like that's not true, christine?
Speaker 1:come on, I don't know if that's okay, I don't know if that's good therapy.
Speaker 2:Probably not.
Speaker 1:I got it from Instagram, Kelly, yeah you're supposed to be compassionate with, like your inner voice and things like that. So you could just be like I hear you and then you talk back to it and, like you know, reassess the situation and that you can handle it, and then just let the thought pass through.
Speaker 2:You don't yell at the thought, you let it go through because it's valid. If the thought is like wow, you are fat and ugly and nobody wants to be your friend, and that just ruminates in your head.
Speaker 1:I mean it's not supposed to ruminate. Well, if you're practicing, you don't ruminate on it.
Speaker 1:You do self-talk and you're like this isn't true.
Speaker 1:This is how did this get into my brain right now I'm not paying attention to this and then it goes right through, it goes in, just like if you can visualize something, I kind of I used to visualize, I used to have like a really uh like kind of like a gunshot animation like, and something would come through and like I'd gunshot the glass and then the glass and then it'd be able to pass through, but I'd have to let it out the window in order to pass through and my, you know, it was just like get out, like that was my visual in my head. And nowadays it's literally just like I in one ear and out and out the other. That's how I view it. It's just like traveling through and I'm like, oh, there's that bullshit again. All right, well, you're not going in a circle, you're going to go right out. We're not. We're not going to ruminate on this one, and sometimes it's fine. I mean, you don't always win, but the self-talk thing helps just. I just would don't yell at yourself, kimberly, because Instagram.
Speaker 2:I know I need to stop getting my therapy from Instagram, but that is a good point. That is a good point and I I'm a visual learner, so I like those visualizations where it's like for me it's like a lot of breathing in and then like just breathing it out, which is so dumb and so like basic, but it's just, you know, it's just like okay, and then I imagine all these thoughts like just coming out with the air.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in with the good shit, out with the bullshit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm curious of that one Pretty much.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the four pillars. There's four pillars of reparenting. Numero uno, the first pillar of reparenting, is emotional regulation. Uno, the first pillar of reparenting is emotional regulation. So this is what she talks about. Here is essentially what she talked about. It's all throughout her book talking about how we regulate through our Kimberly. We're just talking deep breathing. You regulate that way, calm down the. Is it the parasympathetic nervous system that's in here that I believe she talked about? Yeah, Whatever part of our nervous system that always flips.
Speaker 2:We're not scientists.
Speaker 1:Flipping a fucking lid. I believe it's our parasympathetic but also this has to do with our ego-based narratives was saying when you arrive at reparenting and realize you could benefit from engaging more consistently or deeply with the earlier body work that she talked about, she says go back and revisit it essentially and then come back here and then you know, do the reparenting because the emotional regulation is important. Pillar two was loving discipline. Pillar two was I went loving discipline right, right.
Speaker 2:No, I'm laughing because the way you said that, like the intonation, I did finger guns with it too. I didn't figure it discipline like if you added in a wink, I'd be like okay wink, uh.
Speaker 1:So it says here that many of us were raised with shame-based perceptions of discipline. It involved punishment for being quote-unquote bad and we may have felt judged or rejected. It's the reverse of self-betrayal. We have chosen to make a new habit and by proving to ourselves that we are worth showing up for, we build a sense of inner reliability and resilience. So discipline is an important part of the healing process. It cultivates, helps us show up for ourselves.
Speaker 1:That's what she's saying here, which is a different way than I kind of thought about discipline. What do you feel? I kind of thought about discipline, what do you feel? Well, my like number one when I think about discipline, the example that I always go to is I have a friend who runs constantly, like every day of her life. Since I've met her and I've always considered that like, oh, that is discipline, that's discipline. Like that you can continue to do that. Like whenever, in the rain, in the snow, like never, never has an excuse. Like when she does have an excuse, it's like, you know, might she might feel a little shameful or something that she didn't get to do it, or whatever, and feel bad about herself. But that's not the reality of the story that's actually going on. But yeah, that's kind of how I always thought about discipline. I never actually thought of it as what she says here.
Speaker 2:I see that as being disciplined, but it's interesting because I think we see the extremes. Okay, she runs every day. That's hard, she's out in the weather, whatever, or she'll mention oh, this woman had a glass of water every morning. Or brush their teeth. So I feel like discipline is just doing something that you sometimes have to force yourself to do to benefit yourself in some way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wash your face every evening. Do a crossword puzzle, yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those are the examples she gives. The key is to do something every day, do it consistently and build up the trust that you will show up consistently for yourself. I love that you will show up consistently for yourself. So it's like if I want to do something, like it's my responsibility, I have to show up for myself, like no one else is going to do it. I just sometimes the way people phrase things, it just kind of like shifts stuff for me in my head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it like rings true, like it just hits a certain way yeah.
Speaker 1:I totally get that. So then we got a third pillar that goes hand in hand with loving discipline. It's self care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which makes sense with the discipline where we just talked about brushing teeth, washing face, like these are things to take care of yourself, and it's not necessarily like I was going to say getting a massage, but that actually is self-care but just it's like I feel like people are like I got this latte for self-care and you know what.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that's like a little treat or you know whatever. But like there are also hard things for self-care, where sometimes where you're just so tired at the end of the day and you're like I don't want to brush my teeth, but you do it because you're like okay, like like you read showing up for yourself, I want to take care of myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she says true. Self-care is supporting your needs and valuing your worth, so not necessarily getting a latte from. Starbucks yeah, but it can be a little treat for taking care of yourself.
Speaker 1:It's not indulgent at all. She says true, self-care is not indulgent at all and it's fundamental to holistic wellness. So self-care is the act of learning to identify and care for your physical and emotional wants and needs, especially those that were denied in childhood. And then she gives examples of like self-care acts, like meditating for five minutes or longer, moving our bodies. Oh, I love this one. Where's the one? Wait, no.
Speaker 1:The sun to kiss our skin. Spending time in nature. Spending time alone. I love spending time alone. Spending time in nature, spending time alone. I love spending time alone, getting quality sleep. Turn off your phone two hours before bed, kimberly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know one thing I want to go back to. It says it's not indulgent at all.
Speaker 1:Okay, massages are indulgent, yeah that's what I'm saying, like it's not yeah, but it can be considered self-care if you've like, say, had like carpal tunnel or something, yeah, for like ever. And your doctors are like go get a massage, but you've never done it.
Speaker 2:So for me I think it's indulgent. It's not fully self-care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's indulgent for me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it still helps I mean it could be worse.
Speaker 1:I guess I mean it could be worse. I guess I mean it's not something bad to do. It's just because we got to know the difference between treat yourself and self-care. Yeah, they do say getting good sleep hygiene. She says getting quality sleep makes us happier and cognitively stronger and even lengthens our lives. So my two degrees is looking good there, if you do it. Yes, I'm doing good with those sleeping pills. This is the one that I was looking forward. Do you have anything else in the third pillar before I go to the fourth? Nope, okay, so the fourth pillar. This is my favorite one. So one of the ultimate goals of the work is to rediscover our childlike sense of wonder, and that state is made up by a combination of creativity and imagination, joy and spontaneity and, of course, playfulness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, this is what I was talking about with the treehouse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this is what we were talking about first, first earlier, and then I wanted to. Okay, so this one right here. It says, as it makes me so happy because I brought this up during our music episode and you were just like you do what now? And it's right here in this book. Oh, the dancing. Yes, it says as adults, it's crucial for us to prioritize things in our lives that bring us joy in themselves Another part of my two degrees kind of feeding my soul type of thing. And we don't do this because of any secondary gains such as money, success or adoration. We can help re-engage our sense of childlike wonder by streaming our favorite music and dancing or singing freely. Yes, yes, you can Turn on a concert on your television and reenact freely. Yes, yes, you can Turn on a concert on your television and reenact the whole thing Like you would like when you were a child and you'd watch like, say, pocahontas, and you'd like dance and sing along with it and just put on like a BTS concert and just bust out some moves.
Speaker 2:We had different childhoods. I mean, I did dance though, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we used to make what we call I guess you'd call music videos, disney music videos. So we would take everything we own of the lion king, like beach towels, toys, everything, and we'd set it up in like my friend's room and then we turn on like the camcorder and then we'd play like lion king music and we'd all do like choreographed dances and stuff like that and we we think like that shit was the best.
Speaker 2:Like oh yeah, we did a Lion.
Speaker 1:King one today, and they were just like oh man, I think it was always their videotapes, so I never got. I don't get to see them nowadays, but they, they have a baby. Kelly, you know bumping and grinding to the Lion King out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing, cause she says at the end of this chapter she talks about how she did do that, like she started dancing, like she was in public and she said letting go of the fear of what others think, the conditioned state of judgment and all the pain of our wounded inner child is all part of the joyful side of the reparenting process and I really liked that that. It's like it's hard work but there's also just joy and like being who you are and enjoying life, cause like that's kind of the whole purpose A lot of us lose sight of that, like we lose sight of so many things Like she.
Speaker 1:Like just the things she listed here, like learn to sew, study a new language, take surfing lessons, get your hands dirty in the garden with your plants, complimenting a stranger on their outfit, like just doing something for the enjoyment of it and not for any external reward. And, girl, you know, I will compliment everyone, you will, I will Like if I see something that I like. And I'm just, oh my gosh, when I was away the past weekend, when I went hiking, I was at a spice that had cute little stores and I walked into a spice shop and I was shopping for different spices to cook with and this woman comes up to me and she's like, can I help you with anything? And, oh my gosh, she had the bluest of like, kind of like icy blue eyes, like that. Like I was. I've never seen anything like that before and I was just, it was so striking. So, like you know, I answered, I talked to her, answered a question, and I was like, by the way, your eyes are absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you hear that all the time, but you know, I'm not going to just think it to myself, because what if she doesn't get those compliments at home? What if she doesn't hear? You know how beautiful like she has a beautiful like feature on her face. Like I'm always thinking about that, like it's like like, if I could, it's not like, yeah, just, yeah, just. There's no reason. There's no reason to keep it to yourself. When you can make someone happy, you can make someone's day with an entire compliment to keep it to yourself.
Speaker 2:When you can make someone happy, you can make someone's day with an entire compliment. The one thing I love my dad. But I've had to talk to him about because he's very outgoing and he enjoys complimenting people and things as well. But I'm like dad in this day and age. I know you, I know your intentions are just to be nice, but he'll be like oh know you, I know your intentions are just to be nice, but like he'll be like, oh, I like your sweater. Like to somebody. And I'm like dad, that is a woman and you are a man and that can be creepy, like you have to like. There's like certain things that are happening in society for better or worse. But I'm like love that you complimented her and I get your meaning behind it. But if I'm a woman walking on the street and an older man is like I like your sweater, I'm like why are you harassing me?
Speaker 1:You need to tell your dad. This is the trick, right? He just needs to add reminds me of my daughter. At the end of any compliment he says so I'd be like I like your sweater. That reminds me of my daughter a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what if, like, he hates his daughter and his daughter is like terrible human being?
Speaker 1:He has three of them. I'm sure one of you are fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they don't know that, the stranger doesn't know that.
Speaker 1:It's just he gets to say the compliment, and then you don't Okay, I'll let him know him it, and then you don't let him know. I'll let him know. You get to teach. You know what? No, he listens. I'm telling Mr Johns, don't let Kimberly ever put you down again.
Speaker 2:Okay, He'll be like. I like that Kelly.
Speaker 1:All you gotta do is say I love your sweater. It reminds me of something my daughter has, and that's it.
Speaker 2:Then we're good to go, and then Kimberly will feel comfortable and everyone will go on their merry way okay, well, excuse me, for you know societal norms and trying to make sure people aren't creeped out by my dad. He's a really good guy, he's not creepy, but like as a woman in society. I I get where like men approaching you and complimenting you can be very weird.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah. So basically the chapter ends with it's got a few more pages here, but my biggest thing was she starts to go into another example of patient. But the thing that I pulled away from here and she wrote it is reparenting is hard and it's consistent work. It's one of the deepest agents of change and takes time and a lot of fine tuning as our needs change every day and every moment, and it's a practice. So it's not something that, like, you can do once and it's done. It's something that you have to practice every single day, and the practice gets easier the more that you do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's still a practice gets easier the more that you do it. Yeah, it's still a practice.
Speaker 1:It's hard and uncomfortable, so it's hard to want to do it. Yeah, yeah. But even if it's just a two degree shift and then you just practice that, what if you just practice waking up in the morning and asking yourself, how can I meet my needs today? I would keep sleeping.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I need to get in a different frame of mind. But yeah, I I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's good. I only put it down for you to pick up. So I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you got it, I'm glad I saw it. Wow. Thank y'all for listening. Please rate and review. We also have an Instagram that you could follow us on at I'm not okay K podcast, and feel free to email us at not okay K podcast at gmailcom, and remember when you're here you're never alone.