Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Hi, welcome to. I'm Not Okay, Kate.
Speaker 2:This is Kimberly and this is Kelly Kranz. Ooh man, how are you doing, Kimberly? Do you want the truth?
Speaker 1:or do you want to lie Because? I'm going to lie to you. Either way, it's going fine.
Speaker 2:Fine, we love that.
Speaker 1:Fine is fine.
Speaker 2:Fine means you're not fine. I forgot my therapist once had. She turned it into an acronym, like when you say you're fine, it really stands for I forget exactly, but that was a great story, Kelly.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that insightful anecdote into your life.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. You're welcome, yep.
Speaker 1:Okay, like you could have easily Googled that, like I mean here, let me just use the interwebs Fine acronym, yeah, freak out, insecure, neurotic, emotional.
Speaker 2:Is that it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is it when you say it, so is that how you are?
Speaker 2:today Kimberly.
Speaker 1:I'm emotional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:In all fairness accurate.
Speaker 2:In all fairness, it's fine. It's pretty fucking accurate yeah.
Speaker 1:Like emotions are all over the place, it's a fun time. I mean. Whatever you know, I'm living my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah or at least trying. Mm-hmm. So, I'm twinning with you. I'm twinning lives with you. Okay, feed off, feed off each other's fine sanity.
Speaker 1:This is just like you know, maybe you don't have these fields where you are, but there's we're like fields, like grassy meadows, like, uh, farm fields.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, no, there's I don't know where you farm. There's a ton of farming in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:So like dirt, when it's really windy and it starts to form like a cone, like a tornado or whatever.
Speaker 2:A little dirt devil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's us when we come together and it's like crap. Are we going to destroy your home or are we just gonna kind of like peter out after a while?
Speaker 2:we're just gonna destroy the crops we don't know we're just gonna destroy your fucking lettuce.
Speaker 1:Go on I don't go on our way do? Does lettuce grow in like fields?
Speaker 2:around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lettuce grows in the ground I don't like lettuce grows in the ground, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, around me they actually have a lot of tobacco fields and stuff. Like when you start driving through North Carolina, like the drive to Charlotte, like that is just covered in tobacco fields.
Speaker 1:But these are like small.
Speaker 2:they're smaller Like you could see the house on the main road. It's not like they're off in the distance. It's probably different than Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have corn, we have a lot of corn.
Speaker 2:You guys do. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Are you serious? I know it's like all we ever have no cheese, Cheese curds, Well you can't grow cheese in a field, though, can you? But Kelly think, what do we feed our cows?
Speaker 2:I was just gonna make the cheese, the field, corn, hay, you know things. And cows, cows graze in the field. I'm done with the field analogy, but okay, well, it wasn't even about food.
Speaker 1:it was about us being a tornado and how we feed off of each other. But okay, I'm hungry though. Okay, where are we going? Where is the train?
Speaker 2:of thought.
Speaker 1:We never know where we're going Because it is already off the rails and we're like two minutes in.
Speaker 2:This is the analogy for the rest of the episode. Welcome to. I'm not okay, kay. Yeah, seriously. Where we're fine, we're in a field being dirt devil, tornadoes and your lettuce is about to get fucked up.
Speaker 1:That's essentially what we just said Okay, great, thank you for that summation. Oh my gosh. So jumping into more relevant stuff. How was your two degrees? What? Was your two degrees and did you complete it?
Speaker 2:My two degrees, and did you complete it? My two degrees, and did I complete it? Yes, no and yes. I don't want to lie, but I do obviously. I believe last time I like I did have a two degrees that was to also get out, to get outside and plant, and plant in the garden. That was like one of the things I said early on and that I hadn't done yet.
Speaker 2:Well, I spent like four hours planting this past weekend like six bushes, like 12 things of tulips, like 12 sets of pansies that needed to get in the ground, like just a lot of gardening, and so that was good. So I did some. You know some two degrees there. Well, I mean, fuck, it's 24 plants, two degrees, that's a lot, that's a bipolar amount. And then I didn't want to fall asleep on the couch anymore and I got a new couch so I thought it'd be good to start a different association and instead of watching TV when I'm tired on the couch, I was supposed to take my tablet into bed and watch TV and fall asleep there Not so much, but also I've been able to go to bed a lot and not the couch a lot more often.
Speaker 2:So I've been doing it without the tablet and without TV. I've just kind of been like, okay, I'm done out here and I'm going to go to bed now, but it could be a lot earlier. And I think my next two degrees which is serious is I need to take my sleeping medication and it's something that I am not doing and that I need to be held accountable for, because a good night's sleep is a big part of my like, of doing like with my diagnosis and I'm just completely self-sabotaging. So, like technically, I could literally take my sleeping pill and then get into bed, bed and everything would be hunky dory. But I don't want like it's like fuck, hunky dory, like we ain't going to do that. Yeah, yeah, that's. My next two degrees is to start to take my sleeping pill regularly, because I really, really don't, and that's not that's. My doctor prescribes it for a fucking reason.
Speaker 1:So yeah, doctors normally do that, you know they're not just handing out meds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the good kind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the great kind, Don't just kidding. Just kidding, that's an epidemic in this country, but whatever Huge one, how is your two degrees oh my gosh. So actually going off of your two degrees? Because my two degrees was like email, like having some boundaries with email, which is kind of trash. I fulfilled my two degrees. I put boundaries on my notifications for emails. I still check them pretty frequently, but I also put a do not disturb from, like I don't know, 9pm to 7am where I don't get like the notification will pop up but like my light on the phone won't come on, I won't hear any sound or vibration. So that I'm hoping helps me have boundaries with my phone because I have none, which isn't good, but I still have my email as my kryptonite so that I still need to work on.
Speaker 2:So you turned off all the glitz and glam that lets you know it's there, but the notification is still on the screen. So when you pick up your phone and you see it, you could, and then you go into it, don't you?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm just always looking at my email. I don't even need a notification. Like I just check my email, it's like automatic. It's frightening, it's truly frightening. You know how sometimes you just like open your phone and you immediately like go to texts or go to Instagram to see, like what's up.
Speaker 2:That's what I do. That's what I do with my email. Has it always been like this, or is this a new thing?
Speaker 1:I don't think it's new. It's just to the extent I do it as a little more, but like it's an unhealthy amount. That's why, when people are like I have 3,000 unread emails, I'm like I literally have one email in my inbox right now because I need to take care of it and it's read like I know what it is, but like I need to take care of it. Like that's it's red. Like I know what it is but like I need to take care of it, like that's it's an obsession, it's unhealthy. I'm working on it very slowly.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm proud that you put the times on it to, so it doesn't bother you, Even if you're still going in it and looking at it, do you now? I know I don't know how droids work, because duh.
Speaker 1:So I'm sorry, we're better than you. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, the droid Does it tell you like your screen time and how often like you pick up your phone, it tells me my screen time, like how often I sit on apps and stuff, and every week it tells me if I did more or less screen time than the previous week.
Speaker 2:Is your email always the most?
Speaker 1:No, Monopoly Go is oh man. Screen time than the previous week is your email always the most? No, monopoly go is oh man can we just be a sponsor for monopoly. Go for a second, no we cannot because, gosh, I would be so addicted half the world is playing monopoly go are they?
Speaker 2:I think so. I think it's the most popular game right now, or that's what I heard from this guy that we both know named tyler. Yeah, your brother, yeah, who fucking got us into this goddamn addicting game like yeah I.
Speaker 1:I sit on it because it like rolls and does itself. So I spend literally hours of screen time on that, even though I might not be looking at the screen the whole time.
Speaker 1:But oh no yeah, yeah, we digress. My next two degrees, I think, is putting more boundaries on my phone. I think my phone is a very unhealthy thing for me and I think maybe limiting the amount of time I'm on certain apps or just limiting screen time in general on my phone specifically, I think I really need to do so. My two degrees is just figuring out those boundaries and potentially starting to implement them.
Speaker 2:So just like yeah, yeah. Aim to get like, because you could set like a very easy, like kind of numerical goal there. If you're, if you know, if it's like oh, you're on your phone, like you know, an average of like four hours a day, like you could be like, let me get that down to like three and a half, you know like let me get let me get it down to three or something like it's yeah, and then you could put the time limits on the apps that you open.
Speaker 1:I snooze those alarms, I'm just like ooh and snooze.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, I do too, but it is like kind of a reminder. I don't know, I did it for Instagram for a while because I used to be on that a ton, but I'm really. I avoid my phone like the plague. I just text. All of it is just communication. All of my things is Messenger and, yeah, imessage and Facebook Messenger and I'm just constantly fucking talking. But I like your two degrees Thanks, thanks, girl talking, but I like your two degrees Thanks, thanks, girl.
Speaker 2:You'll see how it works out, it'll be great. You'll tell me all about it next week. I'll be waiting. Yeah, I will. I look forward to it. Yeah, girl, what else you got to tell me about today?
Speaker 1:Because today's your day to tell me a story. Oh my gosh. So I think you'll like this because there's a lot of sexism in it. Oh, yes, yes. Trigger trigger trigger yeah, so I'm going to cover hysteria, not listeria, but hysteria.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So A woman's best quality, the best, the absolute best you know, throw me up, lock away the key. I am hysterical, okay, when I say throw me up, throw me away.
Speaker 1:I don't know what you said, kelly. Half the time I'm not even listening, I'm just like, okay, she's crazy town, you know, tell me how hysterical things get. Okay, I will First let me cover my sources. Charlie's health or charliehealthcom mcgillca I don't know what that is Verywellmindcom. Are these resources? Would they pass in a college exam or, like you know, college paper? Probably not, but they did sound pretty good. And I looked at other pages and the information matched up for the most part, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, Charlie health's legit.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, I will freaking love this. Yeah, yeah, okay. So hysteria. When I say hysteria, what do you think of Kelly? Hysteria.
Speaker 2:What do you think of, kelly Hysteria? Hysteria, well, I think of so this is what my brain goes to black and white women in long dresses, their hairs back in tight like buns, like kind of wrapped up, and I see, like that's what I think of. I just think of women. When you say hysteria, I think of old timey kind of women like fifties, black and white analysts. The image that comes to mind basically like suppression.
Speaker 1:Okay, I, I'm kind of similar. I think of the uh, the witch trials, oh, okay, hysteria yeah, yeah, that's perfect, okay. So that's kind of like what we're jiving with and I think both of us are kind of in that realm of what hysteria is. So the idea of hysteria has been around for like a long time. I'm going to give the history Ancient Egyptian times had this notion of hysteria. But anyway, so many definitions. There's many different symptoms of quote unquote hysteria throughout history. But it's kind of become this like umbrella diagnosis for various symptoms and hysterical quote unquote hysterical became a way to describe a woman who was viewed as too emotional or dramatic. So ultimately it's like this umbrella term like oh, she's crazy, aka she has emotions, she's hysterical. So that's kind of the vibe we're vibing with and that's kind of throughout history what it's kind of been known for and that's kind of throughout history what it's kind of been known for. So, over time, various symptoms associated with female hysteria, and I did not see anything about male hysteria, of course not, of course.
Speaker 2:I know Males don't get emotional, they don't ever react, they don't need a term. But us women, goddammit, we step out of line. Boom, I know. Label.
Speaker 1:Actually, I think once later in history it's mentioned, but like the vast majority of this is about women Anyway. So the various symptoms included get ready Amnesia, blindness, dizziness, emotional outbursts, fainting fatigue, hallucinations, histrionic aka dramatic behavior, loss of various sensations, muscle spasm, muscle weakness or loss of muscle control, paralysis, seizures, trouble swallowing, various pains. I'm like, oh so just living, living makes you hysterical. I was just like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:But none of that happens to men, so they can't be hysterical. Yeah, seriously, that's just women's symptoms only. Notice how much the vagina and the tits were mentioned. That it's just women's symptoms only. Yeah, yeah, seriously, that's bullshit.
Speaker 1:It's insane. It's insane. I'm like checking these off. I'm like, oh, fatigue, okay, I have that, all these things. I'm like, oh, fatigue, okay, I have that, like you know, like all these things. I'm just like, oh, I guess I'm hysterical. Anyway, so let's jump into the history, because, kelly, you are going to love this. I just have a feeling you're just going to be like, yes, this is what I signed up for.
Speaker 2:You hit me up already.
Speaker 1:the second you said sexism, yeah so we're starting out the gate right in the uterus. So 1900 BC, ancient Egyptians linked these hysterical disorders to the spontaneous movement of the uterus within a woman's body. So like, oh, the uterus is moving, that's why she's hysterical, why she's hysterical and you are going to love, kelly, you are going to love this. So how do we treat this? How do we treat the uterus moving around a woman's body and making her hysterical? Let's expose the woman to different smells, so they put an unpleasant odor by their mouth and nose and a more pleasant scent near the vagina or like vice versa, because they believe this could help change the uterus's position and return it to the correct position within the body via smell.
Speaker 2:What made them think the uterus was dancing around anyway?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I didn't Beyond this. I was just like this is insanity, this is ridiculous. I don't know, I didn't beyond this. I was just like this is insanity. This is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I can't even look anymore, because it's probably like, oh, one woman like you know, like who knows, it's just they believed this smell, like because I guess the uterus could sense or like smell this, and wanted to go to like the good smell and so like, like, get back into place. Is it about having a baby in? It? Is a baby in there or they're just like a uterus? It's just like just a uterus. And then I mean, I know my body and shit, but does my uterus move around?
Speaker 1:well, did you actually know? This is a weird fact that I didn't find out via this research. The uterus isn't like attached to anything, just does kind of. I mean, obviously it's in a place like it's you know attached to whatever, but like internally, it kind of just floats. It's like a balloon. Yeah, because like you grow a baby and like if it's attached to something like, yeah, it has to like grow and stuff. So I mean we're no, don't take our word for it, but that's kind of what I've heard, how interesting.
Speaker 2:I love Egypt. I love like old school, like Egyptian times, something. Since I've been a little girl I've been fascinated with. I'm going to get over there one day. I'm going to see all the trash around the pyramids and I'm going to be disappointed. That's going to be sad, but you know I'll be there. Yeah, that's wild. Tell me more.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Freaking, lutely. Let's go to ancient Greece. Take me the ancient Greeks, okay. So the methods and logic behind this stuff is based on Greek mythology, which I don't remember a lot of, but here we go. So they linked hysteria to women not having sex with men and thus not having orgasms. Plato was like the uterus is sad when it's not having sex and giving birth. So the treatment there was sex and, mind you, this is in like a marriage, a couple, you know whatever. But they're like oh, your uterus is sad, that's why you're being hysterical. And that's how they were like oh, you need a baby, or whatever.
Speaker 2:So once again I'm sorry, but it's within couples, right? So it's not like there's men that are now going around like, oh, I got the cure.
Speaker 1:I got the cure? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they weren't. From what I've seen, this was like women need like if they were single, they need to get married and like have sex with their spouse in order to like treat this hysteria.
Speaker 1:So, once again, they're like the uterus is migrating around the body, and so they'd like place pressure on other organs, causing any number of ill effects. This was like the roaming uteri theory and like Plato and the physician oh gosh, I'm going to butcher this. Ateus, ateus, it's A-E-A-T-A-E-U-S. Oh, I wouldn't even know where to start. Yeah, too many vowels for me. But was called hysterical suffocation and the offending uterus was, yeah, like. Oh gosh, heaven forbid, you're a woman was coaxed back into place once again with good smells. This is the ancient Greeks.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is the ancient Greeks, so they're like still kind of like the smell thing, I don't know. Like I don't know, I can't even begin, but anyway, aristotle and Hippocrates shared this view and in 5th century BC, hippocrates was the first person to use the word hysteria to describe this phenomenon. The term hysteria derived from hysteria, the root word for uterus in Greek.
Speaker 2:Seriously, yeah, so hysterical has like sexist origins full circle. Greek took it all the way around all right, it's fun, it's fun.
Speaker 1:so other writers and physicians at the time blamed the retention of menstrual blood for quote unquote female problems. So that's something else that was like thrown in there, like, oh, retaining this blood in your uterus is, you know, causing issues. Once again, obvious solution was to purge the offending fluids. So marriage. The offending fluids. Yeah, like all of this is just, it's just so offensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your entire being, my body is just offending the fuck out of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but once again. So marriage, and it's implied regular sexual intercourse, was the general recommendation. So people are like, you're hysterical. You have a lot of blood in you. You got to get married hysterical.
Speaker 2:You have a lot of blood in you. You got to get married.
Speaker 1:Here's your prescription for some tea. Please find a man Like that, was it? That's. That's where our ancestors were like going with everything, so smells they were going with smell, uteruses and sneezing and sneezing, sneezing, yes. And marriage Okay, let's, okay, let's keep moving, because it's just a fun ride right now. So male semen was also believed to have healing properties.
Speaker 2:Stop it, of course, of course, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So sex served two purposes. Where it's like, oh, let's help this woman become less hysterical, and their semen might help out too, like it might help heal too, so it's like, oh great, so, oh, this man is helping me in so many ways, I said sarcastically, anyway, so for young, okay, get this, give me that sperm.
Speaker 2:I can't handle this, kelly, you're going to love this next part.
Speaker 1:So like, okay, what if you're young and unmarried? Or like what if you're a nun or a widow? You know, like what are you going to do? So because they're unable to achieve orgasm via the penetrative sex. So midwives were occasionally employed to manually stimulate the genitals and release the offending liquids. So that's that, you know it's offending liquids. Yeah, my gosh, kelly, you are just. You just like the terminology for this, like this is just blowing my mind.
Speaker 2:It is just so. Just keep going, just keep going. So it's a lot. Just keep going, just keep going. I don't even know, I don't even have words, okay, I mean I will.
Speaker 1:This is just. It just keeps getting better. So Hippocrates associated hysteria with abnormal uterus activity within the body, and he went a step further, saying that when a woman isn't having sex, poisonous bodily fluid is stuck inside the body that isn't being correctly released. So he also believed that the uterus of a woman and this is where like smells must have been a thing in that day and age, because it says that day and age back in time. Whatever, the uterus of a woman who isn't having sex could cause toxic fumes to travel around the body causing various symptoms of hysteria.
Speaker 1:So treatment involved sex, of course, within marriage and the utilization of different smells plays near the nose and vagina. So it's just like these smells, it's just like you know. Like, have you heard of a vajayshal? Yeah, I feel like maybe we're still doing that, maybe we're still like we got to get ourselves together, vajayshal.
Speaker 2:Or this is just all about men and they're just like. You know what it needs to smell better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what, like think about it, that's actually a fair point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're like let's like this needs to, like it's just, the whole thing is just sexist. It's like well, let's put a smell down here before I now fix you with my, my holy penis, like oh gosh. Don't even say that yeah well, and let those offending liquids out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't I don't like you saying it.
Speaker 2:Imagine if I was telling this story, your face would just be in cringe mode the whole time. I'm over here. I'm over here Like what.
Speaker 1:Like you're like dying Meanwhile I'm I'm like trying to be professional about this. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:You are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excuse you, this is just wild, I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a thing or a belief, I didn't know, it was just fun.
Speaker 2:I always knew about hysteria, but I never knew this, so more more so.
Speaker 1:newer theories surrounding female hysteria occurred in the 1600s, when Thomas Willis, an English doctor who was a pioneer in anatomy, suggested that hysteria was of cerebral or brain origin and not due to the uterus. However, most people still contribute it to women's uterus and sex life. So now we're going to jump to the Victorian era. We're going to cover Jean-Martin Charcot. Charcot, I just butchered the heck out of that, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really, charcuterie board. So in the late 1800s, jean Martin Martin whatever often referred to as the French father of neurology. He wanted to, like, look into female hysteria in a more modern and scientific way. So he also believed that hysteria was not linked to the uterus, instead saying it's related to the nervous system. He also noted that men could experience hysteria as well. So a million years later, so like 1900s BC to like late 1800s, it was just like women are the only hysterical ones. And then finally someone's like hey, an solution with sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, you seem a little hysterical, let me take you home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, In 1880, France, Jean Martin first took a modern scientific sense to this disease. He lectured medical students, showing them photos and live subjects on his hysteria symptoms he believed were caused by an unknown internal injury affecting the nervous system. So I don't know what he's showing them like live subjects. I just imagine like a woman screaming.
Speaker 2:There is a woman, yeah, really living her life.
Speaker 1:Tell us what hurts she is hysterical Everything.
Speaker 2:Tell us what hurts hysterical everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything hurts. Yeah, yeah, because I'm a woman in the fucking 1800s.
Speaker 2:Everything fucking hurts and everything sucks. This is my goddamn hysterical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really, I'm extremely oppressed like these rules were made for men and not me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I keep having to have sex, supposedly to feel and I get no say in it whatsoever yeah and everything's doing nothing so offensive yeah, anything women did you know?
Speaker 1:so one of these medical students was sigmund freud. Do you know sigmund freud?
Speaker 1:yeah, psychology personally yeah he's a friend of the friend of the pod, yeah, so he's the founder of psychoanalysis. So freud, along with his like partner, like his psychological partner person, like this watson sure partner, brought breuer in Austria. They developed Jean-Martin's theory further and wrote studies, some studies, on female hysteria from 1880 to 1915. He believed that hysteria was a result not of a physical injury but of a psychological scar produced through trauma or repression. A psychological scar produced through trauma or repression. Specifically, the psychological damage was a result of removing male sexuality from females, an idea that stems from Freud's famous Oedipal Moment of Recognition, in which a young female realizes she has no penis and has been castrated. So like you know where it's like? Oh, he's almost there, but then he just takes a right turn into like completely incorrect.
Speaker 2:Right back at the penis, yeah, yeah. So right back at the penis again.
Speaker 1:Yeah Like, oh, you know, like trauma or something like that. Yeah, maybe that's why she's emotional and whatever.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, oh okay, no Well you remember the first time you, when you were a young kid and you realized you were castrated, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that was a moment in my life, I remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, that was, that was real for me.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm just like. Oh what about for men Like? Why didn't they think like the?
Speaker 2:moment when you wait, when you're a kid and you realize I don don't have a vagina Because men ruled the world.
Speaker 1:Kelly, nobody thought that way. So one of the most famous and monumental case studies surrounding hysteria is around a female patient named Anna O that's a pseudonym. Her real name was Bertha Pappenheim, but she was a patient of physician Joseph Breyer, so the partner to Sigmund Freud Watson Okay, yes, her case was described in the book that he wrote with Sigmund Freud Studies on Hysteria. So the book Studies on Hysteria Anna O, that's who this is about. So she initially sought Breyer's help with a series of symptoms while caring for her dying father. Her symptoms included partial paralysis, blurred vision, headaches, hallucinations, mood swings, eating disorders, amnesia, facial pain and language aphasia. He diagnosed this woman with hysteria and through hypnotizing her and getting her to open up and talk about painful emotions and events that triggered her hysteria, he was able to help reduce the woman's symptoms. So Anna O called this her quote unquote talking cure. And all of this research and work by Freud and Breyer ultimately helped give birth to psychoanalytic theory which ties into modern day quote unquote talk therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah so like she talked out things and it helped like decrease these things. So Anna O's case also influenced the development of the free association technique. Anna O's case also influenced the development of the free association technique. Breyer used hypnosis during treatment sessions and he found that allowing her to talk freely about whatever came into her mind was often a good way to improve communication. So she just you know kind of what was on her mind, what was she dealing with, what did she want to talk out? That kind of free association.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this makes me feel nice. This makes me feel nice. That kind of reassociation, yeah, this makes me feel nice.
Speaker 1:This makes me feel nice. Okay, don't sit in that too long because it's not going to make you feel nice, yeah, so so Breyer and Freud may have painted the picture that her treatment cured her of. Like the symptoms. However, records indicate that she became progressively worse and was eventually institutionalized. She did recover from her illness and went on to become an important force in German social work. She also published a number of texts under a pseudonym and her own name, including plays, poems and novellas. So like she's not doing science stuff, but like she did social work. And then she was also a creative, like she was doing plays and stuff.
Speaker 2:So she got out of the institution, yes, and was completely able to thrive.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't go that far, but she was like, able to, like, live a life and create works and like yeah, To a certain degree I guess, thrive, Okay. So researcher Mark J Bluckner suggests that Anna O was eventually healed thanks to three cures the talking cure, the writing cure and the social cure. He says, quote she was cured not just by her psychoanalytical treatment but also by realizing her intellectual gifts via her writing and by changing the society that was making her ill. So like he's thinking, okay, so yes, the psychoanalytical probably helped, but it's also like she used writing to help, you know, get things out.
Speaker 2:Very cathartic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then also just society as a whole. So it's unclear whether Anna O felt that Breyer's treatment was helpful or successful. She left no records of her treatment, which is kind of funny, like what a slap to the face. But in her own work with patients as a social worker she reportedly opposed any use of psychoanalytical treatment for those under her care. It's like the things she used she did not use with her own patients. So that kind of makes you wonder, like Kind of makes you wonder like did she not like the experience or did she not find it useful or what? But that's kind of interesting that she didn't use it in her own work.
Speaker 2:That is interesting, I mean, and what you've been saying is like documented from Watson's perspective, right? So it's none of her own? It's none of her own. Yeah, it's none of her own.
Speaker 1:It's none of her own. Yeah, like they have looked at like her poems and plays and stuff and like tried to get things from that. But I mean that's also open to her interpretation because it's like a creative escape.
Speaker 2:So it's amazing what could happen if you actually talk to your patient about their progress and like write it down, yeah, and like in these studies.
Speaker 1:But it did say that she like obviously went on to continue doing social work and like you know. So you'd think these symptoms at least were lessened enough that she could live her life. So I mean, I just hope for the best. I'm just like, yeah, I hope this worked and it wasn't too painful.
Speaker 2:It sounds like a win. I mean, she got out of an institution back in the day. I mean, usually you're just like you know.
Speaker 1:In there forever yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially if you are hysterical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a fun time being a woman in history, Anyway. So while strides were made in the right direction with psychoanalytical theory and hysteria, the female genital ties still ran deep. I love this. This. This I found funny. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, pelvic massage was still a recommended treatment. Yeah, pelvic massage. During a pelvic massage, a physician or midwife would stimulate a woman's genitals with their fingers to make them have what they called hysterical paroxysm, aka an orgasm An orgasm like what.
Speaker 1:In later years medical vibrators were also used for the same purpose, and I just find this hilarious that like women were going to their doctors and they're like, um, hey, that pelvic massage. I think I may be hysterical, like, yeah, let's do that again. Like it's just like women, women's health has been so just all over the place and so insane that it's like, oh my gosh, like people are going to look back at women's health now and be like, oh my so.
Speaker 2:But there's so many symptoms that fall underneath hysteria, like who wasn't getting a? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So is there hysteria today? Let's you know, sum this up, because, like we can laugh about that, but then it's like, oh are, are women in this day and age being taken care of? This was like 1900s, of course not so of course fucking not yeah I know, but luckily hysteria is a defunct diagnosis. Like Like you can't be diagnosed with hysteria Pretty much a blanket. In 1980, hysterical neurosis was finally officially removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders by the American Psychiatric Association 1980. 1980.
Speaker 2:That's too late.
Speaker 1:That was like 40 some years ago. I hope that they were still.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope that they stopped diagnosing hysteria before earlier than that of the DSM.
Speaker 1:Who knows, people are still doing lobotomies, kelly. So who knows? I know? So, instead of modern, diagnosis of conversion disorder was included, so like there's other, because this was such an umbrella term. People are like, ok, there's other treatments here. Like, oh, you're going blind, you know? Like what does that do to? Or you have fatigue or whatever. There are other diagnoses now and I love this article because it was like, oh, so conversion disorder was included and it's like one of the best parts. No mention of a uterus being the root cause. Yes, please call that out. So once again, this because hysteria was so broad and associated with so many different things. Now, in modern times, we have other health conditions that can be linked to these symptoms, so we have improved greatly from hysteria. Still not the greatest women's care, both mentally and physically. Still not on par with men, I'd say. But it's better than just being called hysterical and like that's your diagnosis. So that's hysteria, and I hope you enjoyed my TED Talk on hysteria.
Speaker 1:I love that. That was so good.
Speaker 2:It's a lot.
Speaker 1:It's a lot.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of uterus, it's a lot of penis, it's a lot of offending fluids. It was everything that I needed, you're welcome. Yeah, man, you're welcome. You know me so well yeah.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, kelly will like this, she's going to love it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to love it. Yeah, I just could not imagine going to the doctor and being like yeah, you know what, here's a prescription for a massager and I'm going to need you to use that at least twice a day for the offending fluids.
Speaker 1:I don't like you saying that, I just don't, I don't like that. I heard it Now.
Speaker 2:I can't stop saying it, can you? Stop saying it no, no, I can't. It is the most. I'm going to use it for the rest of the week, the day, the year.
Speaker 1:Please don't.
Speaker 2:It is such a term, it's like worse.
Speaker 1:It's almost worse than the word. You know that everybody doesn't like oh yeah, yeah, don't say that word either yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mutual word starts with m ends in t. No, no, I didn't say it. I'm just letting everybody know that, yes, they are on the same page as us I did it because you, you did it.
Speaker 1:Let's just jump into the book. Let's just I don't want to hear about these words anymore that was great that was great. Thanks and thanks, girl. Let's talk about trauma bombs, chapter nine, and how to do the work by dr nicole lapera yeah, this is the part of our podcast where we do a little.
Speaker 2:That was good, that was unplanned, but it was amazing. Great minds you know.
Speaker 1:So, funnily enough, kelly and I were like I think we're trauma bonded. Did we bond over trauma? And that answer is probably yes, actually no, not probably, it is definitely.
Speaker 2:It's definitely yeah, it's a definite.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a definite I wouldn't say horrible trauma, but you know, life trauma, yeah. So what is traumatic bonding Describes the relationship between two people with insecure attachment no-transcript. So you know like. I just I don't like that definition. But she says common signs you'll witness in a trauma bond include let's see if any of these go with us.
Speaker 1:Kelly, you have an obsessive, compulsive pull toward particular relationships, even though you know the relationship will likely have problematic long-term consequences. No, I mean, we say no, there's no long-term consequences here. I mean we say no, there's no long-term consequences here.
Speaker 2:I mean, there could be.
Speaker 1:Are we just supporting each other in our bad mental health place?
Speaker 2:I don't know, yeah but I'm always in this place, so just keep supporting me and we'll be Gucci.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I could be lifting you up. Why aren't we lifting each other up? You know, I'm raising you up. Okay, we can't afford copyright. We can't afford copyright, we can't afford that.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, Josh shut that down. Put them to bed. Put them to bed.
Speaker 1:Okay. So the second thing your needs are rarely met in particular relationships or you are unaware of what your needs are in any relationship I'm aware of my needs.
Speaker 2:I think I am too Okay.
Speaker 1:Last one, okay, last one. You continue to betray yourself, in particular relationships, to get your needs met and have a related lack of self-trust. When you don't trust yourself, you outsource your worth to others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's us I'm just looking at it. I'm like ew, it kind of is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know like oh, but but the one thing I loved because I was like reading this and it goes into like the archetypes of like you know, because this probably started in childhood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, infancy, in childhood.
Speaker 1:she says yeah, I don't love like going in there and like I don't want to say blaming my parents, but like I feel like it's blaming my parents and I'm like okay, it's like, it's not like I had trauma necessarily. I like to focus on this where she says just because you're participating in trauma bonds doesn't mean your relationship is doomed. She's like far from it. Trauma bonds are teachers outlining the relationship patterns we've always carried and the areas that we can begin to work on changing.
Speaker 1:And I think that's us where it's like we know our patterns and, yes, we still are doing them. But I feel like that's the two degrees, that's the okay. We're trying to change here, we're trying to become healthier, we're trying to become better, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that is too. I like that a lot more than the other one.
Speaker 1:Me too. Me too, it's more positive. Like I can't deal with more negativity in my life. I can't just be fine anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, but yeah. So that's the part I tried to focus on, rather than the like, the trauma. Like, whenever I hear trauma, I just it feels like just like this lead weight, just like trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I like to think of it as a huge thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like to think of it as okay. No, this like we're connected because we both have similar traumas and it doesn't need to be a trauma, but it's like we have similar life situations or, you know, we've been through similar stuff or our minds are, you know, in similar places. That's what I like to think about. That's what connects. Yeah, yeah, you and I, or you know us and our friends, or like us and you know. Whatever that's.
Speaker 1:What I like to focus on is the connection and then maybe being like is this healthy for me? That's the part of like okay, trauma bonds Okay.
Speaker 2:Cause there are. She does say in here, like some, some are not okay, yeah, some are really not healthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's like a, a coming to Jesus moment where it's like, okay, I need to recognize, okay, we bonded to recognize, okay, we bonded over this. Is this healthy or not? Where, like she she gives a lot of examples in this which I like I know you don't, but she said the goal is always to receive love, because bonds equal survival, love equals life. So that was for her where, like, she felt unworthy of love and she'd pull away in relationships or you know, she'd always want that, that feeling of being valued in the relationship or you know, just that kind of thing. So that's where it's like that I could see as unhealthy, because you're repeating these patterns of, okay, I'm looking for love from my partner, but I'm not giving it because I never, you know, saw that or whatever.
Speaker 1:So I think in those cases, yes, I think for us as a friendship.
Speaker 1:it's like, yes, maybe there are unhealthy patterns, but like I don't know we ignore them, but like, but like I don't know we ignore them, but like I just I think I just don't like to sit in the negative. That's probably where I am right now. Just because I don't like to think of trauma is just like oh, this is a trauma bond and nothing can change, you know, but that's just me I just keep talking. You know caffeine. Today I had caffeine.
Speaker 2:And she's like a lot is romantic relationships. She talks about that too, like most of it, but she talks about how sexual chemistry has a powerful physiological effects on it too. If your relationship is built on highs and lows, the sex can be built on highs and lows and it can make you feel really alive, like oxytocin and extra estrogen, and that just kind of she alludes that that goes into that's kind of like the sex-infused honeymoon stage.
Speaker 1:And then that ends.
Speaker 2:When that ends, we are bored or we start to like have our own stress by hyper-focusing on our partner's faults, which is my focus on all my partner's faults. Hey.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, he just called you telling you about the lunch he left Back in the day. I was like are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:No, not my current partner, but if I'm reflecting, make sure you eat and like, provides you with good food.
Speaker 1:Describe the lunch he has waiting for you in the fridge.
Speaker 2:This did happen. Yes, I am blessed. I am blessed to have a yeah what the heck. I have a good man in my life that makes sure my depressed ass is eating Gosh.
Speaker 1:Gosh. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you.
Speaker 2:No, I just found that interesting because I've been in that. I guess in other phases of my life I've experienced things like that. Again, I don't think I have an insane amount of oh wait, what am I talking about? Yes, I do. I don't think I have an insane amount of trauma. Wait, wait, wait, what am I talking about? Yes, I do. I don't think I have an insane amount of trauma. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, give me a minute. You are lying to yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yeah, when I reflect on it, I could kind of see in different relationships I've been in romantic and then just in friendships too. I had like a great friendship with someone, with a good friend who passed away, and I knew the entire time I was like this is a trauma bond and I was like I knew what I was in but it just felt so comfortable and I was just like I was like she gets me, I get her, but we both weren't healthy, healthy, so it wasn't like it is a very different dynamic than what you and I have, like, where you were saying like you know, like our trauma, it was just like her trauma was so deep that all of a sudden, like my connection to her brought up like all of my deep, like trauma. It was just very interesting and that's. It was very unique experience that I had there. Yeah, but again, that wasn't like that wasn't a romantic relationship but that was a big trauma bond for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she even said like it doesn't have to be a romantic. But I think it's easier to see because, like, our partner not replaces our family, but we become a family with our partner. So it's like that kind of thing. But yeah, I cause, I see, I feel like it's always. I see these memes online where it's like you, you find out like who your close friends are at work, because, like you kind of begin to complain with them, like a little bit and then like you slowly like complain more and more, and that's how you like bond with work trauma bond
Speaker 1:yeah, and it's like every workplace has, you know, an annoyance or whatever, and that's how people connect. And it's just funny because it's like, yeah, I might call that a trauma bond, but like it's obviously not romantic and it's also not the most traumatic, but it's just like it's bonding it's. It's almost like how do you make friends? Like you have experiences, shared experiences, or you find their, their life story very interesting, but like when you have the shared experience, it bonds you because you both know that situation. So I kind of see that as trauma bonding too, where it's just trauma that has bonded you guys, rather than just like, oh, we both have a dog named Steve, you know, like it's, it's something else.
Speaker 2:I have a weird example but I can't think of. I've been trying to think of his last name for the whole time now. But remember when Ariana Grande and Pete Davidson started to date yes, total trauma bond. Because she had just had the shooting at her concert, mac Miller had just passed away and Pete Davidson, as most people know, his father passed away in the 9-11 terrorist attacks and, as most people know, his father passed away in the 9-11 terrorist attacks. So he's and that's a big defining characteristic of who he is. So when they got together, like instantly I was going trauma bond, trauma bond. And first and like when, I trust me, I don't think about it too much, I don't think about celebrities like that too much, but it just seemed like I was like there's probably something really comforting in that for both of them.
Speaker 1:I would think so. I mean, those are huge things to happen in life. But yeah, but it's also being honest with yourself and like where they got engaged super fast and it's again yeah, Like, yeah, you want to like be with this person and you feel comfortable and whatever.
Speaker 2:And then the honeymoon phase ended, yeah. And then it's like, oh, crap.
Speaker 1:we have nothing in common. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a few archetypes that she talks about. A lot of them they come from our parents when we're children and then they like kind of shape. Who we are become as adults is what is here, um, but she's got a few and I can think of people who relate to each of them and maybe some of these in here, like if I pick and choose little bits of each like I could probably apply to my parents, but nothing here is like a blanket across the page of like. Oh, this would be the archetype that I experienced. But there's one having a parent who denies your reality.
Speaker 2:So anytime a child was told that what they were thinking, feeling or experiencing was not valid, that creates a void in the self. There's also having a parent who does not see or hear you. So those are like you were ignored, you were neglected. Your core need to be seen and heard and learn early to receive love, like that just wasn't there. And there's having parents who vicariously lives through you or molds and shapes you. I'm sorry, I'm smiling for that one, because I knew so many people growing up whose moms were like I'm your best friend and instead of being a parent first and then, it's kind of like they were living, like through them, like I could see it like you could just like, like that, like the mom from mean girls, hi, like she comes in with the drinks and everything, and like the pink jumpsuit, like those cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been. I've been at a few playdates and, like you know, hung out with a few friends and like they'd see their've been. I've been at a few playdates and, like you know, hung out with a few friends and, like they'd see their parents and I'd be like, oh hey, you're more hip than I am you know yeah and then there's the uh having a parent who does not model boundaries.
Speaker 2:I've met so many people who probably have parents that don't model boundaries, yeah, and I also know some parents right now that should put up more boundaries and are not.
Speaker 1:I mean yes yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think also.
Speaker 1:I think it's generational, because I'm not sure boundaries work.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I don't think so either. Boundaries are words that put up a boundary. It has just become a common term. I've been hearing it in therapy for a while, but then you learn when in school, enmeshed boundaries and things like that. Yeah all those fun things, but having a parent who does not model boundaries yeah, I've worked with a few moms like that. Having a parent who is overly focused on appearance oh my gosh. A parent who cannot regulate their emotions I think that's probably one of the most common.
Speaker 1:I would think so Just because, once again, boundaries, emotions, all these things they're, I feel like somewhat recently in the zeitgeist and the conversation in our culture. I think back to, like my grandparents and how women didn't necessarily be allowed to, like, express emotions or, you know, say what they think, or they would just be all over the place because they suppressed stuff. You know, like I just I kind of wonder if, more recently, hopefully, kids are becoming more healthy and not seeing that as much. But yeah, I think that is still very common.
Speaker 1:Cause, even like myself, if I'm honest with myself, I'm like don't regulate emotions the greatest, Like some days I'm just sad. Or like my happy isn't always very happy, Like it's just like you know so yeah, and that's just yeah.
Speaker 2:So I feel like any fucking parent is eventually going to, is always going to, is going to have a moment where they storm through the house and slam a door or two. Yeah, we're all human.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think just in general. It's difficult for anybody to live a perfect life. We'll all have, you know, some type of archetype, some type of trauma bond. You know some type of archetype, some type of trauma bond you know, with people.
Speaker 1:It's just a matter of making sure it's healthy, that we're working to be our authentic self and, like, trust our instincts and trust who we are. I think, ultimately, taking care of ourselves and trying the best we can to take care of ourselves and to have healthy relationships is all we can do. I mean, obviously there's work that can be done to get to that place, but I think that's ultimately what we're striving for.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was a good chapter Interesting I was going to say the same thing the archetypes, the trauma bond, the second I said trauma. I liked last week's chapter too. What was that? That one? What is the the name on that one? That one got me excited when we were doing that oh my gosh, you and trauma wasn't it like trauma? No, this one was called trauma, yeah, but I'm pretty sure chapter eight, chapter eight oh, ego stories ego stories.
Speaker 2:Oh, that one was my favorite one so far. I like chapter eight. So far the best. I like the ego stories. I just think it's crazy how your ego can help you and also hurt you.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I love it. I love it Just like your entire being. It can hurt, you know Just like myself.
Speaker 2:I can help myself or I can hurt myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What am I going to do? Most likely, hurt myself, all right. Well, that's another one in the books.
Speaker 1:check it off the list, the never-ending list thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 2:Please like and subscribe and follow. You can also follow us on instagram at I'm Not OKK Podcast, and remember when you're here, you're never alone.