Welcome to our debut episode! Explore the depths of our mental states, delve into the eerie world of lobotomies, and crack open Dr. Nicole LePera's "How To Do The Work" as we discuss Chapter 1 together.
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Welcome to our debut episode! Explore the depths of our mental states, delve into the eerie world of lobotomies, and crack open Dr. Nicole LePera's "How To Do The Work" as we discuss Chapter 1 together.
Follow us on Instagram @imnotokkpodcast
Email us at notokkpodcast@gmail.com
We appreciate you!
Hi, I'm Kelly and I'm Kimberly, and welcome to the I'm Not Okay K podcast. So how are you doing today, kimberly? On a scale of one to 10, one being the worst and 10 being the best, as the scale usually goes, as the scale does usually go.
Speaker 2:I'm very familiar, having been to therapy for many years I would say I'm a four. I'm a strong, four, strong, four today. Yeah, you know what? Take away that strong, I'm weak, I'm a weak, four A weak four.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, what does four mean to you?
Speaker 2:It means not good Below average I don't know 40% out of 100. What does that mean to you?
Speaker 1:Kelly, no, that means math, so that means jack shit Okay.
Speaker 2:That's okay. That's fair. That's fair. Why, what are you on a scale of one to 10, kelly Showered. Okay. Okay, you're barely on the board.
Speaker 1:I'm barely on the board, but I got a shower, so I did good today.
Speaker 2:You know what that's a win? It is a large win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not even a small win, man. It's a large win, that's for sure. Yeah, we got out of bed.
Speaker 2:Honestly, that should be at least two bonus points.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, If the whole day was counted by points and at the end of the day we had points for all the things that we did against our depressions, I'd converted into cash money and I'd buy myself something to get free dopamine it's not free I'm literally paid for it. It's not free. It's not free. We paid for it. No, it's not. But that's like that. I like that exchange rate. I'm not mad at it. Yeah, literally living our lives for money.
Speaker 2:That's what everybody's trying to do. Is your cat playing with the wire? That's the goal.
Speaker 1:No, that's me.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, so you're just fidgeting while we talk. Are you already bored?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm already bored, I've just got to fidget. I got to fidget, I got to move, I got to move, I don't.
Speaker 2:I sit professionally still because I'm a, but if we're talking about looks, I'm a 10 out of 10. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:Well, so on this podcast, I'm not okay. Okay, kimberly and I explore all sorts of mental health issues, mental wellness. Her and I are not certified professionals, so do not take help from us, do not seek help from us. If you have a true issue, please reach out to a therapist. Or if something is incredibly crazy, dial 911. Do not dial us. We are here, suffering with you, and we are also here to succeed with you.
Speaker 1:On our show today, we will be featuring a story told by Kimberly. The topic of the story is not known yet. She's going to be surprising us. And then, after the story is told, we will be doing a book corner. Kimberly and I are currently reading the book how to Do the Work by Dr Nicole Lapera. We will be reading a few chapters each week and discussing them with you towards the end of the podcast. So stay tuned the entire time to hear that and maybe eventually you could start reading along with us, which would be a great goal and we could all have a bunch of fun together discussing the book. Now, kimberly, what do you think about all that? That's our podcast.
Speaker 2:It seems like a lot of work to me, Kelly. I don't know why I signed up for this.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I signed up for this. It's for all. My mental imbalances brought me here to this day To now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not even getting paid for this. What is this? This is like therapy.
Speaker 1:This is therapy, this is our therapy, this is our healthy hobby. This is probably not good therapy, though I mean it's a type of expression like dance.
Speaker 2:This is our dance.
Speaker 1:This is our dance, so would you like to get into our dance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we can, but let's lower the expectations a little. So, lobotomy, could we jump in? I'm very excited to talk to you about lobotomies. Oh, you have lobotomies for me. Lobotomies, you get a lobotomy. You get a lobotomy, you get a lobotomy.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love lobotomies Not that I've ever had one, but I think it's so creepy and so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I did very rudimentary research, as expected. Obviously, just a nice little Google, a nice little Google search. I'm getting this information from a National Library of Medicine article. There was a psych central blog I looked at but they had sources in their article, so it's like pretty legit, and then an NPR story. So that's kind of what we're working with, so there is some credibility to this. But, kelly, do you know what a lobotomy is?
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure. Now it's when they go through your eye to get to parts of your brain, and then there's a ice pick. Lobotomy, I think, is like the most infamous one Yep. Do you know why they do it? Because they lack the awareness of how to treat people with mental unwellness.
Speaker 2:Mental unwellness.
Speaker 1:Do you know where it created today here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's basically it in a nutshell. So it is its brain surgery, mental treatment, mental illness. A lot of what I read it was actually really upsetting and I feel like psychiatry has come such a long way but also has such a long way to go. They said it was like a more humane treatment, rather than putting all these people in straight jackets or like in a padded cell because the psych hospitals were being overwhelmed and you know they wanted people back out in society and all this stuff. But I'm like, oh, so the answer to that was literally splitting people's brains in half.
Speaker 2:Oh, so there is no in between. Like okay, cool straight jacket or ice pick, but originally before like the ice pick lobotomy, because that's what I knew. Like I think in. Did you see Nurse Ratchet on Netflix?
Speaker 1:No, I didn't see Nurse Ratchet on Netflix. I've heard that I should have done.
Speaker 2:It's kind of dark, but like I believe there's a scene where, like they do a lobotomy and it's just like oh gosh, so originally doctors would like drill into the skull. I saw pictures where, like there's just like a square hole in this person's skull. I'm like oh my gosh, the amount of pain that would be. I know the brain I don't think has any like nerve endings or like you can't feel, but really, yeah, I think that's a thing I mean don't quote me on that, there's no resource backing that besides Kimberly but like just drilling into your brain, like that's got to hurt. You have nerve endings on your head, I don't know. Okay, so they drill through your skull and then inject ethanol to destroy certain like connections in the brain. So like just injecting stuff in your brain and I'm just like the amount of connections you have, like that's terrifying.
Speaker 1:Like ethanol in my gas tank.
Speaker 2:I think it's just isn't it like like alcohol type stuff? Yeah, like it's. It's like not good, like I don't think it should go in your brain.
Speaker 1:How did they come up with the science, man Kelly how did they come up with any science?
Speaker 2:It's science, you know, anyway. So that's where it started and actually this like has been going on for, like I think, a long while. Like back in history they find skulls of you know whatever. Like this isn't it's new in this day and age, but, like I think in history this has been done before. So, like you said, it was the ice pick lobotomy where it turned into the ice pick lobotomy where, like you stick the ice pick it's like in the person's eye and like I think, with like a chisel or like a hammer or something, yeah, you just go into their brain and, like you split certain connections. I think it has to do with, like the prefrontal cortex and all this mumbo jumbo, science, but basically like splitting connections in your brain. And over the years, roughly, I've seen the number change like 50 to 60,000 lobotomies were performed in the US and Europe in the like two decades. That this was kind of popular, which is kind of insane. Yeah, but this kind of started with. Did you take psychology in college at all?
Speaker 1:Yes, I got a bachelor's degree in psychology. Oh seriously.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited.
Speaker 2:So much more from you. Now, that's right. I have more to give. I have more to give. Yeah, you do. I have a minor and that minor was a struggle to get. So together we make one college degree, almost Woo-woo. So have you heard of Phineas Gage? The American crowbar case Sounds familiar. Yeah, I have a feeling you'll remember this. So he was a construction worker on a railroad and like there was an explosion or something and a rod went through, like his head, basically in a cheek out through the top of his head, and he survived. Okay, the funniest part reading about this guy, I mean it's not funny, it's serious, but like he carried the bar around with him, like until he died.
Speaker 2:Like he. That was like his friend or something Like. I guess it is a good talking point. Wait, so they got the bar out of his face. Yeah, no, he's walking around with a 12 pound. Well, that's what I'm thinking. Yes, they got it out of his face.
Speaker 1:Oh shit.
Speaker 2:One of his eyes didn't work, like there's certain things that, like you know, he was still affected, but, yeah, just shot through and he kept the bar. I mean, I guess I would too, I wouldn't carry it around with me, anyway. So the bar was three feet seven inches in length and 1.25 inches in diameter and this just shot through his head, dear God. Okay, so they called this the frontal lobe syndrome. So there were mental and behavioral changes. So he used to be like energetic, you know, personable, hard worker, his friend said, and then he became obstinant, like irresponsible, and they call this the frontal lobe syndrome because, like his frontal lobe got janked up with this pole. So does this ring bells?
Speaker 1:now Slightly slightly, but when I hear Phineas, I always want to go. Phineas and Ferb Okay, you know that.
Speaker 2:Right, you get that, I get that reference completely wrong in this context, though it is it is.
Speaker 1:But no, I do remember this story back in college, like 70 years ago I remember 70, you are pretty old, but yeah, he carried this iron with him everywhere and I thought that was really strange. It's like a mark of pride or something. It's like this thing tried to kill me and I beat it Like let me show you the most deadliest weapon. But it's not deadly and it's heavy Like I would think it's heavy. Yeah, he was just walking around bench pressing his murder weapon. Yeah, the weapon that tried to murder him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what I, I don't know, I don't know Anyway. So that's Phineas P Gage and that's kind of. It's not what started it, but it's like an important reference point in like psychology and the brain and lobotomy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something they realized came like. Stuff came out of that yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's like so much background between America and then other places in the world doing lobotomies. The first psychosurgery was performed by I'm going to butcher this Dr Gaten Libberkart in Switzerland in 1888. So, like years ago, Dr Gatti, he removed part of the brain. He was like oh hey, this part of the brain is abnormal behavior, let's remove it From a full-fledged human being.
Speaker 2:Well, let me. Yes, cause there were some of these people who, like, did it on monkeys, which is always so sad to me. But yes, I think this was on. Yes, first, patients abnormal behavior, so removing chunks of brain. Okay, so nasty, so nasty I just think, thankfully, when I talked to my doctor about my mental illness and I'm like, I'm anxious, I'm depressed, they're not like frontal lobotomy, like I would just hate to be alive If I was in the past, I would have been a full-blown contestant for a frontal lobotomy.
Speaker 2:And that's so sad. That's so, Actually, because you weren't necessarily in a mental institution. I'm not sure you'd be top of the list.
Speaker 1:I think I probably would have wound up in a mental institution. Okay Well, let's think positively. I just the past would have been the dark ages for me if I was alive. In fact, I'm just super lucky that we're on this mental health kick right now. With every like it's a wave. But even some countries like it's not like this for them.
Speaker 2:Oh no, not at all, and that's a whole other conversation, because that is depressing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not fair.
Speaker 2:Anyway. So he did this, he removed the chunks of brain and, surprisingly, his report was not well received by his colleagues and met with disapproval by the medical community. So he like stopped doing the work, which he still did it to a number of people, so those people's lives were affected forever. But he's like, ok, I'm going to stop. So then America, america, started doing this. 1935, dr John F Fulton. This is where the monkeys come in.
Speaker 2:Chimpanzees two chimpanzees had bilateral resections of the prefrontal cortex. I don't know what that means. They had brain stuff happening. Yeah, more brain stuff, yeah, and it's so sad. The monkeys like come on.
Speaker 2:Anyway, these, I guess, were like pioneering, because these animals became devoid of emotional expression, which is so sad, and they were no longer capable of arousal of the frustrational behavior usually seen in these animals. So like changed their emotional state and that makes me so sad. So the behavioral change was noted, but the actual implications of this surgery weren't so like. Later on, like down the line, social scientists noticed that aggressive behavior and rage reaction were associated with low tolerance for frustration in individuals with sociopathic tendencies. So like they just looked at like oh cool, this emotional whatever is gone in these monkeys, but like, what about other stuff that's happening? You know like are they still able to socialize or be quote unquote normal in their you know community, that kind of thing? So that wasn't really looked at. When he like noted the changes, so oh goodness, kelly, buckle up. So frontal lobotomy, which is I'm not a scientist chunking up the brain, that's what I think it basically is Brain stuff.
Speaker 1:We love it, brain stuff, brain stuff.
Speaker 2:It says the severing of the underlying white matter. Which have you ever heard that thing where we only use like 10% of our brain?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I have heard that and it drives me crazy. Yeah, it's so, not true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think that's because of like the white matter and whatever. But anyway it reached its most popular during World War II. Yeah, so in the 1930s, the work of the celebrated Egos Moniz M-O-N-I-Z. So he is considered the father of cerebral angiography, whatever I don't know. But he presented 20 patients, all the stuff of lobotomies. They called it Lakotomies L-E-U-C-O-T-O-M-Y.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I wonder if that's just like a weird spelling exchange from the German version.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have no idea.
Speaker 1:We were trying to make it our own in our own way. That's interesting. Most likely America likes to do that. You know how America does. It's ours now.
Speaker 2:Yeah seriously Like let's just change two letters and now it's ours. But he did this like research 20 patients, whatever. And then he won the Nobel Prize for his pioneering work on frontal lecotomy. What about all these?
Speaker 1:patients, my god, yeah, and once again the Nobel Prize. It's ruined forever.
Speaker 2:Are they just like? Do people even know what these things are half the time? No, not at all. Specifically, from the research, it says the white matter connections between the prefrontal cortex and the thalamus were sectioned to alleviate severe mental illness, including depression and schizophrenia, in long-term hospitalized patients.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, you would have been there what I'm not long-term hospitalized. Well, you would have been back then because you wouldn't have had any of these resources. I guess, or people would just think like I'm very lazy.
Speaker 2:Just say you would have been with me.
Speaker 1:You would have been with me.
Speaker 2:OK, I'm trying to not put myself in the lobotomy category.
Speaker 1:Thank, you very much. Well, mm-hmm. Ok, so Nobel Peace Prize. Does it say anything about what happened?
Speaker 2:with the 20? Ok, it's not the Peace Prize, it's kind of like that was not the Peace Prize. It's just like the Nobel Prize. You know how they have different ones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:I just always say Peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's trying to make peace in the brain. No, that's not quite it. So this guy who won the Nobel Prize, what happened to all 22 of his patients? 20 experiments, I'd say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't. So I read one article where they tried to track some of these patients down, because it was like I don't know, like Idaho or something they're like oh, some of these people have lobotomies, like, let's try and check in. This was obviously like decades and decades ago. This wasn't like yesterday, and it's insanely sad because so some people would just die from the treatment, which, ok, that makes sense. A nice pick in your brain like one wrong way of new, like sever, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:So percentage, let's just these aren't statistical but like for generality purposes, like 20% would die, just like from you know, a smaller portion would just die from the surgery or they would commit suicide 20% is a large number for such a small group.
Speaker 1:you know what? 20%? Yeah, it's a large number.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, but there's like three options. So 20% they would get worse or they would die. No, actually I think it was they would die, because then it's like 30, 40% would get worse, like after they have this, you know, now they'd have less capacity to move, to do their own things, like they would become even of greater need to people around them. So that's that chunk, and then the last chunk and I think this is I'm assuming, this is why it was it's spread is because it kind of worked. Like these people became different versions of themselves, but like not emotional. So yeah, they're not depressed, but I'm not sure how happy they are either. So technically their depression quote unquote went away.
Speaker 1:So this quote unquote worked To me it sounds like it worked for other people in their lives that were happy to not see the behavior anymore. Versus the person itself, it definitely didn't work, for yes, I mean 100%. That's what I would think.
Speaker 2:I don't think many of these lobotomies people were like oh, I mean maybe for some of them, because I'm thinking of family where, like you don't know, but you want to help your family member, you're like they're sure there are cases like that, I'm sure yeah.
Speaker 2:So I could see that where they're like oh yeah, they're not suffering anymore. But, like from what I read, a lot of these are like people in psych hospitals, where they're like we have no more room and some of these people we want to release back into society. So they're like lobotomy and lobotomy.
Speaker 1:Get back out there. Lobotomy, you too Get off the bench, get back in the game Get out.
Speaker 2:But it's crazy because they're like oh yeah, we do like six an hour or like something, because they were just like, like and also that's disgusting.
Speaker 1:Six Like that's so careless, that's so these people would be like, I'm pretty sure, awake many times, like I think they said, like local anesthesia, this wasn't even that long ago either. This was just the 30s you said 30s to like.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, when did this end? To the 1960s, so 30 years.
Speaker 1:That's not even 100. That's not even 100 years ago. Like that's like there's, that's. That was like just around the river bends, like that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and get this. It's not even technically illegal in the US, wait, wait, wait, wait, what I know, I know. So other countries are like, yeah, this should be illegal. You know whatever In America they're like it's frowned upon, but like, not illegal they're. They're rarely performed, but technically still legal. And I'm like who?
Speaker 1:is getting lobotomies.
Speaker 2:I feel like everybody has that reaction when you hear lobotomy and it's like for good reason, Like this is nice, my stomach turn anyway. So who was being treated? Like I said, according to this article, the most severely incapacitated patients were, like. Psychotherapy was ineffective or unavailable. So it's like oh unavailable Cool, there wasn't enough resources.
Speaker 1:Let's put a pic in the brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I basically did it to those people. I've also seen and I don't know how prevalent this was, but you know where women like their husbands would be like oh, she is so mentally distressed like she needs help Lobotomy.
Speaker 1:I know, so I saw gay men yes, lobotomies. Because they'd be sent to institutions because it'd be like something you're sick, something's wrong with you, and then they'd send them. And then, yep, same with the men.
Speaker 2:Being my wife is hysterical, exactly, and it's like you're so right, how can you talk yourself out of it? You can't. It's just not possible. No, women had more lobotomies done than men, but gay men were also included in there. So that's kind of mixed in here with these other psych patients where it's like okay, I wonder how easily accessible this was to the community.
Speaker 1:Was it just like, oh, my wife got a lobotomy and now she's you know, yeah, like your neighbor next door is like oh yeah, shelly's back. Oh, how is your chip? She's good. Like, look look at, you know Shelly's been, she's at a bed now. She's doing this, she's doing that. And it's like you know the neighbor is like, oh, I could take my Shelly.
Speaker 1:Like I like if it was like that, like how he came home, he's a whole different person. Like just hearing that, like, oh, he's a whole different person. Now he's changed so much, like that could sound like a really good thing, but in reality, no, it was absolutely terrible, probably for the person living inside the brain that had the lobotomy. I wish I could feel like that was probably. I mean, I've never had one, but I feel like you'd feel trapped inside because you can't express anything. It's all gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that actually brings up a good point, because I'm not sure how much research was actually done on the lobotomy patients in regard to, like, emotional trauma or emotional regulation, because, like the gauge guy where he, like, would get upset and, you know, couldn't really regulate his emotions as well, or his anger. It's like, why aren't like, why didn't people talk to the actual patients besides seeing, oh they don't, you know, they're not as emotional or they don't get depressed, or whatever. It's like, okay, are you happy today? Can you still feel? You know, like, why aren't they actually talking to the patients? I feel like many times that happens in psychology where it's like, oh, this miracle thing, it's like is it?
Speaker 1:The research was done, the accolades were given and now you don't need to revisit it because you've got the data that you need to prove such and such is such and such, especially back then. I mean, I don't know anything like that today, but back then I'd say they got their rewards and walked away because just the amount of care for life back then was just different. It was just different the amount of value we put on one's life, especially during wartime, when everybody is trying to figure things out and trying to stay ahead of the competition, competition being Germany doing crazy experiments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole other very sad thing. But yeah, I think it was like we have a problem, we need to solve it. Let's just put a bandaid and the lobotomy was the bandaid and try and get these people out of psych hospitals so they're not this weight on society, when in reality it's like, hey, maybe give them some good resources, a good therapist. But actually the reason that lobotomies began to end is because the drug pharmaceutical revolution began in the 1960s. Drugs that would help them began to become more popular. That kind of lessened the need when it's like, okay, so we have medicine that can do this and it might actually help better, but I found this kind of interesting.
Speaker 2:So a high-profile incident that helped turn public opinion was a Dr Freeman who was like the American doctor, who a neuropathologist who helped develop this in the early 1940s in the US. So he gave President John F Kennedy's sister Rosemary a lobotomy oh my God, yeah which I was like oh dang, and it left her permanently incapacitated.
Speaker 1:I've never heard this. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah no, that's kind of like oh, what a terrible way to kind of show off lobotomy that the president's sister is now incapacitated. So that turned public opinion. Oh, and here's more legitimate statistics. So this Dr Freeman, in 1971, he published his long-term follow-up of 707 Schizophrenics and he followed up four to 30 years after the lobotomy. Oh OK, he reported that despite improvement in the majority, 73% were still hospitalized or at home in a quote state of idle dependency. So even though it kind of worked, the vast majority still needed help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he said it worked for the majority. The majority needed help. Like that's bad math and I'm bad at math Boy, that's bad.
Speaker 2:This is like not even girl math. This is just, yeah, bad math.
Speaker 1:This is just bad math, damn. Well, at least someone followed up with their patients to see what was good, yeah, but not get what they were looking for. No way, no way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like I said before, lobotomies rarely performed. In other countries it's illegal to do, but in the US they're technically still legal. I don't know if they're still happening. I don't know what doctor would do that, because I feel like that would be extremely frowned upon Frankenstein type of doctor. Yeah, so basically drugs is what helped get rid of lobotomies.
Speaker 1:That big pharma did something good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wouldn't go that far, but sure, yeah, so that's lobotomies, because I couldn't dig too deep because then it gets extremely, extremely depressing, as most things in psychology do from the past.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, no, I like that. That was great. I love the take on that. I just can't believe I never knew that about. What was the name of John F Kennedy? Rose Rosemary?
Speaker 2:Rose.
Speaker 1:Kennedy, rosemary Kennedy, I've never heard that. I can't believe that it took like a social, like a celebrity socialite, you know type, to get it done, for it to become a huge no-no. But isn't that what?
Speaker 2:always happens Like I think no no, it is.
Speaker 1:It's very much reminiscent of today, like it's kind of I don't want to say funny, but I mean, yeah, it's kind of fucking funny, like it's the same shit that would happen today.
Speaker 2:Oh, all this crap is happening to us, underlings Like and then one famous person is like oh, this is bad. And they're like yeah, it's bad, we got to stop it. It's like cool, us plebes were down here suffering. But thanks, plebes. Plebes are little sheeples, sheep, sheep, sheep, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 1:Pretty much. Oh, that was, that was fun. Dark twisty got my stomach to turn a little bit. I learned some things I didn't know. Yeah, Thank you, kimberly. No prob, bob. So shall we kick off the next section of this show, which is where we talk about the book that we're reading? And as I mentioned, what do you think what Kimberly loves to do?
Speaker 2:And shout out to my own therapist, who recommended this book.
Speaker 1:This is true. We're reading this book because of her therapist. Yes, Now my therapist has recommended plenty of books to me and she laughs at me because she knows I'm never going to read them. But Kimberly's therapist, on the other hand, I'll read books for her, yes.
Speaker 2:My therapist thanks you, my poor therapist. She's like. She's like, if you want to do the work, here's this book. You know, read it whatever. Blah, blah, blah. She's like highlight it, write in it. I'm like love it. I'm like I love to read and also then I get to buy a book. So you get that like little dopamine high of like ooh, purchase, and then I get the book. Yes, in my mind, I'm just this champion reader. In reality, it took me like two weeks to read one chapter. I was like, oh, this is like I don't, I don't enjoy self-help. I'm like I'm perfect, so why do I?
Speaker 1:need this. The book literally called how to Do the Work and you're reading. You're doing the work by reading the first chapter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, let's be honest, both of us were like what the frick is this introduction? Like there's a preface and then an introduction and I'm just like, oh dear God.
Speaker 1:I actually I enjoyed. What part of it. Was it that I enjoyed it?
Speaker 2:was.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it was the preface the dark night of the soul. I actually really liked that. I liked it because it was like from her eyes and her like relating to being at a place of rock bottom. This is a woman who is writing, she is a therapist, she has her own practice and she felt stuck. That is a term here that her patients have said to her. They feel stuck and she felt stuck as well. So the whole book is talking or I'm assuming it's going to talk about how to get out of that stuck place through her method of holistic psychology, which is including the mind, the body, the brain all in one, instead of keeping the mind and the body separate. What was your initial impressions of it?
Speaker 2:Well, I immediately saw why my therapist recommended it to me because I highlighted things in here. I was like I have literally said this to my therapist Like you said like stuck, or one thing that really resonated was you know where? You'll like change for a week and you'll be like I'm doing this, I'm doing this and then it just stops. I'm like that's exactly what I do. Like yesterday I was looking online at like cute sports bras and tops. I'm like I just need the perfect workout outfit to go, start doing yoga and live my best life and just turn my entire life around.
Speaker 1:And obviously that's what I do.
Speaker 2:That's not going to happen, that's not how that happens, but, like in my mind, I still think that way, where I'm just like I just need you know the membership, the nice shoes you know whatever. And yeah, so a lot of that.
Speaker 1:That's not, that's that's. That's a real thinking. That's exactly how I am too. It's like, oh, I'm going to do something. Well, let me do all the fun parts of it first, like get all the accessories, get everything that I need, and then never sign up to do it. But it's everything I need to do, and I felt damn good at getting all that shit too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you're proud of yourself Like yeah, yeah, you got it together, enough that you literally got everything together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I got together. I mean, this is embarrassing, I'm going to say this out loud. So I'm a big, I love Pilates and I got myself a springboard Pilates board for my wall around Christmas time. I treated myself and I got everything for it. I got, you know, the mat, all the springs, the outfit, just the whole, the whole damn attitude, the book that teaches you how to do the workouts, and I have not done it once.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's only March.
Speaker 1:It's only March and I've had it since December. And now I'm in this guilt, shame spiral of there's this beautiful board on my wall and I don't practice with it and I just, oh my god, it's just terrible, it's that's that's where I feel stuck. It's part of the stuck like I'm. It's part of that I can only get so far and then I get stuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where, like I had this come to Jesus with my therapist where I was like I keep coming to you, I keep complaining about stuff. I'm like, yes, you help, how can I help myself? Because my therapist always says she's like you should be doing more work than I'm doing for you. Like, if I'm doing more work for you, then this isn't like a productive type relationship, because she shouldn't be the one fixing me like I have to do the work myself.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So that's why I was like I am not doing the work. I show up to therapy. You know, I take my medication and I try and work through my anxiety attacks. Okay, what else am I doing? Like? And that's why I read this book, or started reading this book because I was like yeah, please give something to me that I can like help myself.
Speaker 1:So Did you do the at the end of chapter one? And then I have a question I have. I like this really cool thing that she wrote in here I want to ask you about. But at the end of chapter, when did you fill out the, the little work?
Speaker 2:No, cuz I just I read through like three questions and I was like okay, yeah, I am like yeah cuz.
Speaker 1:All mine are yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, you were likely feeling stuck. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like Skimmed it and then once I saw that if you've answered yes to one or more, I was like II, I don't even need to write this down. Yeah, Okay what was your thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I highlighted it. It's a pretty long quote, but I figured, because of our ages clocking your age right now that I wonder if you feel this way too. Okay, here's a little excerpt. I had recently celebrated my 30th birthday and thought to myself Is this it? Even though I had already checked off so many of the boxes that I dreamed of since I was a child, living in a city of my choosing, running my own private therapy practice, finding a loving partner, I still felt like there was something essential in my being that was lost or missing or had never been there in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I read that at first I was like subtle brag much. I was like, oh, you're 30 with a private practice. I'm like, hey, at least you have a private practice. You might be mentally unwell, but at least you're freaking crushing it.
Speaker 1:I know that that shit gave me comfort because I was like, oh man, you could feel that way too when you're treating people for this and you're that young, yeah. But but I don't know I were that really resonated with me because I was like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it resonated with me too, because it's it's almost like we're just constantly looking for other people who feel like us. You know like you just want somebody else to acknowledge. You know what you're feeling is justified like valid Mm-hmm. I feel like for the longest time. This is where I hate social media, but I'm on social media all the time.
Speaker 2:But you think everybody else is is crushing life and like getting married, having kids, buying a house and, yeah, we all know, like everybody you know, nobody lives that perfect life. But when you keep seeing it and you keep having to deal with the dark moments in your own life, it's like am I alone in this? Does anybody else feel that way? So it was nice to feel like validated.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, those picture perfect lifestyles on Instagram and Facebook and you're just sitting there wondering be like, no, you have four kids. Show me it, show me, show me the real pain. Like, please, like, stop making it look like that. But obviously it's you know, Social media is what it is. But yeah, I felt very validated in that too, especially I'm gonna be 35 and it's just like is this what it is? Yeah, I guess it's just the best question. It's like is this it now? Is this it like what now? Why yeah?
Speaker 2:Which is like it's. It's so for me right now it's like depressing, like oh my gosh, is this all there is? But I'm trying to like change my mind, to be like, no, like there's so much more to discover or, you know, I get to grow into so many other versions of myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard to think that way.
Speaker 2:When you're in this just like dark place, where you're like mind lies to you and it's like everybody else is ahead, you're so far behind.
Speaker 1:Minds like that. There's such a dicks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well it's. There's this whole thing. I don't know where I read this, but it was like Don't believe your thoughts, like your thoughts lie to you, and it's that's why I think is it CBT, where cognitive Behavioral therapy yeah we're like you look at the facts and it's just crazy the amount of crap that we Believe, that we tell ourselves Like it's like oh, I'm a failure to my family because I got a bee on a test. And it's like seven years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's like, okay, what facts back that up? Absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's so true, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's upsetting is, but mental health is upsetting, it's depressing, if you will.
Speaker 1:It's driven by anxiety. Yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2:Mental health jokes. Just make me, so, just just make me laugh, because normally they're so funny and so dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. It's like I love it when I love comedy, so I watch all sorts of different comedians and I love when they do like Depression jokes or anything like bipolar. Just it just makes me feel. It makes me feel validated, like it makes me feel validated like oh there's, there's my people. Like that person up there gets it like that's one of my people. Yeah, cuz, like you said earlier, I think we're all just trying to find our people and that can be incredibly overwhelming and anxiety-driven and Just depressing sometimes, because you don't think that those people exist, because they're presenting themselves differently the internet or Various platforms in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I can't imagine growing up in this society. Yes, like you said, like mental health is more talked about, is more, you know, recognized as you know, a real illness, all this stuff. But like after COVID, you know, and all they had was social media and it can socially stunt a generation, oh gosh.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:Can't imagine being a part of that generation.
Speaker 1:No, the social pressure starts. So early social pressure started. I mean, social pressure started for me early to. That was Victoria's Secret spot and those catalogs only came, like you know, ever so often. It wasn't like it was like bombarded in my face, like on social media or anything Literally like I gotta say Victoria's Secret had the biggest effect On my body image and everything growing up.
Speaker 2:I think America's next to a model like where people are realizing now that was, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, america's next to a model, what they're realizing.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, what is it. What is the line? What is the line? We all believed in you. Oh, what is it? Yeah, what is it? You, you, you could do that, we, what was it? I can't, I can't remember. Yes, oh my god, she was a tyrant. She was such a tyrant she was. That was actually another show too like I remember watching a girl eat like they were abroad and like France doing something, and she was like eating in a room and all the other girls were judging her for eating because how she's getting a little bit of a Belly, and I was like are y'all kidding me?
Speaker 2:like yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's not what I was thinking then in that moment. In that moment I was thinking should I eat in private too, so people don't judge me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the lessons I'm learning Terrible but it's like so true, because you're like I was a child watching that, but like who knew that? That would be so like Messed up to like who we are as women now, like I, I don't know, I wouldn't know like where the plus size?
Speaker 1:like Technically, I believe I'm a plus size because I think I'm a size model at this point, when they would come in like I was like yeah, like what?
Speaker 2:and I mean we're just talking about the mental health things, but that one where she had people switch races that did not age well.
Speaker 1:I know, I know I need to go back and start watching this again. We can have a whole little segment on this about how unhealthy America's next-top model is, how it shaped women and men Today's society, how it shaped everybody on all the spectrum on today's society. Because that was a lot. That was a lot it was.
Speaker 2:It was like ooh man, is there any good things about mental health like that have? I mean, besides the prevalence of like Better drugs than, I guess, kind of better treatment? It's still like my kind of a very depressing field of we don't know. We have.
Speaker 1:It hasn't come very far, I really. I mean, we're lucky, like where we live, that it's like more widely accepted now, but it wasn't like that 10 years ago. Like 10 years ago I wasn't running around like feeling I wouldn't feel comfortable telling people like about any of my Diagnosis is or how long I've been in therapy or any of the medications I'm on, like that's that was all for me. But nowadays it's like hey, what are you on? Oh, me too. Like it's basically Trading Pokemon cards or something, except you don't trade your medicines or not. You don't do that, it's just my little.
Speaker 1:Yes, so, but it's just today. It's different in that sense that we have more access and we're being told to actually seek out help for the first time and ever in history, like all these commercials and stuff that we see, like for like those text apps where you could have therapy, anything like it's literally asking people to reach out and go to therapy, which is something that I don't think America's ever seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still think we have Very far to go, though I mean.
Speaker 1:Just because.
Speaker 2:I think of how some therapy, like normal talking therapy, isn't always covered by health insurance or isn't seen as a valid Medical thing you know like yeah and that's where it becomes hard. It's once again that thing where it's like, if you can't see it, you don't think it exists.
Speaker 1:It's like okay Well.
Speaker 2:I'd love you to deal with depression and try and get out of bed some days Like please, I can't, because big pharma and big medicine companies are not allowing big medical insurance.
Speaker 1:They're not allowing me to this privately owned corporations. Yeah gosh, there's so much money to change and that needs to change and fall apart, because we are not a money-making Scheme for human beings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately, but we're also just plebes in the whole scheme of things, which is plebe?
Speaker 1:Plebe. So anything else about this book, because my goddess talking, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:It did. I mean the first chapter. Let me see if I highlighted anything, because I like I'm trying to highlight because, quite honestly, if my therapist sees this, I wanted to know I I'm like, okay, let me do this work, like I've been doing this for my therapist, kind of, but I'm doing it. You know like why I do it. I do want to get better, but it's also like I kind of want my therapist to be proud of me.
Speaker 1:She will be proud of you. She'll be proud of you because you're learning how to do the work with dr Nicole appara.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you seen those like memes or whatever, where it's like you just want your therapist to be like you win, I have nothing else to fix? Like great, you don't know exactly what's happening? And it's like, yeah, I haven't seen that. Yeah, or something where it's like, oh, you were so funny, like just your therapist, just like Reaffirming stuff for you that's never gonna happen and if it does, like get a new therapist because that is probably not right, but okay, let's see. Let's see Chapter one. Okay, so I have these things highlighted where she has the basic tenets of holistic psychology. Take us through those.
Speaker 1:Let's do that one. That'll be one that we can end on or have something before that so there's four.
Speaker 2:First one healing is a daily event and you have to like, go inward to heal, which sucks, she's like it's not. Like you go somewhere to heal where I think like, oh, therapy, I go to therapy to heal and it's like now you gotta look at yourself. I'm not just like, oh crap, like I actually have to take ownership for this, please know, Like please know, I just want to change like put this on generational trauma, you know like, okay, it's my parents, you would the second thing.
Speaker 2:So it says Harness the power of choice, because choice enables healing. So we can control, like, what we choose to do Actions, thoughts, all those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things that we think are beyond our control sometimes aren't, so we could Make it take the reins, yeah, but that just feels.
Speaker 2:I told my therapist this because I had a whole Therapy session just kind of digging into this Not this specifically, but just like where I was and wanting to do the work and it's it's almost suffocating when it's like holy crap. I choose this because she was saying I take the victim role a lot, my mental health and, and I love my therapist she never says anything accusatory but, like you know, like shameful or anything. She just makes comments and you know whatever. But she was saying that I'm a victim. The way I speak I sound like a victim because I'm like my anxiety is happening to me, you know depression is happening to me and in reality she's like, no, like anxiety is part of who you are, but it's something that can change.
Speaker 2:Like I don't own my anxiety and depression, I see it as just my brain is wired differently and that cannot change. And she's like in some cases, yeah, like not the wiring of your brain but, like you know, the chemicals are imbalanced. But she's like for a lot of people this is just, you know, changing thoughts, changing actions, actually putting in the work and you don't have to live this way forever and and that sucked so bad to hear, to be like wait, I'm doing this to myself and that's not fully the case, because you know life circumstances and stuff, but it's like you have the power to change this and that sucks to hear.
Speaker 2:So I'm not sure if you had that Awakening Kelly, where you're like. Oh wait, I have the power in the control of my life, I Know.
Speaker 1:I have mine's more behavioral, so Mine's just trying to learn Patterns and see them before they start happening. So therefore I can control them. So it's hard.
Speaker 2:But that that you even are aware of the patterns. I mean, I'm not even sure I'm that far into this. I'm just trying to acknowledge what am I doing, you know, and trying to change things for the healthier. I don't even, I'm not even that far to be like, well, this is a pattern.
Speaker 1:I've been in therapy since I was 18.
Speaker 2:I Mean okay, I haven't been since 18, but I've been therapy quit often too. It's funny because I swear my friends get like Draught, not drive by therapy, but like Osmosis therapy, because it's like my therapist talks to me and then I talked to my friends and my friends are like, oh my gosh, this is such great advice. I'm like thank you, because it costs literally thousands of dollars and hours of my life.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's in the same thing. My therapist says some dank ass shit sometimes and I'm just like I'm taking that into life and I'm gonna say that it's gonna be, that's gonna be my journey and I've gotten the same types of things. It's like, oh wow, you're so self-aware, like what is that? I'm like, yeah, I should be, I should be For all that money. I should be self-aware, I should know what's going on and I should be able to tell you what's what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we can identify our problems, it's just fixing them. That's the hard part.
Speaker 1:Fixing the right word. See a therapist right now. I'd be like it's fixing the right word to use. I don't know, I didn't think it is. I think it's more like a Shifting Shifting a behavior, changing a behavior, not fixing it, because fixing implies that something's wrong with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't like saying like I have a broken brain, or when people say like I'm broken, I'm like. I don't like that. I.
Speaker 1:Learned a good phrase Because I didn't like. I don't like saying that kind of stuff either. I don't like saying like oh, my brain's not normal, or this and that. So I asked my therapist, like what can I say? And she could, and instead of saying like I don't want to say I'm not a normal person or I'm, she said, say you're atypical. So there's typical people and I'm just atypical. And I was like I kind of. I kind of like saying I'm atypical a little different. It's a little better than saying normal, because there really kind of is no, yeah, it's normal, everybody's got it their own normal. It's kind of like a blanket word. I don't even know what I say. You say it's happening to me, I'm a victim. That's why you're reading the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really I suffer through this. I don't even know. But Super random side story. So I was talking to my therapist and I said something. I don't know what this was in reference to, I think, obviously mental illness, but I was, like you know, sometimes just Going into my mental illness or something is like putting on sweatpants where you're just comfortable and like this is it Like you know, whatever? And that wasn't the exact Frasiology of it. She's like oh, I like that, like I think I'm gonna use that and, honestly, that probably made my life. I was like I'm helping people.
Speaker 1:That's such a good point. It does feel like that. It feels like get like Cuddling up with an old friend. That's how I always thought of it. It just feels like a safe place to be.
Speaker 2:It does it's. That's something else where you want the comfort and you're at the very least, even if it gives you anxiety, you know what's going to happen. You're like, oh, I have a panic attack. Yeah, this sucks. I hate it. You know it's a lot to go through, but I know it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:The unknown is scary. Like what if this gets worse? What if I find out like I'm a terrible human being? You know, like it's like I rather live in this safe place where okay, at least I know my mental illness?
Speaker 1:and you know what to expect and you've seen the pattern before, so you know where it's gonna go and it's comfort zone. Yeah, exactly yeah, we're all.
Speaker 2:I'm sure most of us Are guilty of that, yeah, which is why we're reading this book yet again. Okay, let me finish these last two. So it was healing as a daily event. Harness the power of choice. Third one the practice of making consistent, small daily choices. Empower the change, so basically not making just one huge change, but like small, incremental things. And then, lastly, just taking responsibility for mental wellness, so like being empowered by the ability to make yourself better. So those were kind of the things that I highlighted because I'm like, oh okay, all those things suck to hear, but they're important to know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, that was chapter one. Yeah, I like it so far. Chapter one, chapter one. What do we say we're gonna do next week? We're gonna try to come in with chapter two and three.
Speaker 2:Yes, chapter two and three two and three and Again.
Speaker 1:the book that we're reading is how to do the work by dr Nicole Lepera, the holistic Psychologist you can also find her on social media.
Speaker 2:I follow her on Instagram. She has some good.
Speaker 1:Call yeah, when I told my therapist I was reading this book, she got all all hype about it cuz she was like, okay, so it's a good book Like I have your approval good. Thank you, cuz Kimberly's therapist gave her approval and one acknowledgement as well. Please and thank you always.
Speaker 2:We're terrible, we're like literally reading this book from like because we want to feel validation. And then we're also like, oh cool, other people are doing it, let's do it.
Speaker 1:And that's who we are today. That's, that's.
Speaker 2:That's upsetting, kelly, that is upsetting.
Speaker 1:It's okay. We can make behavioral changes all in due time. We'll make them over the course of this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or things will just get darker, Either way I know people join us along the journey. Yeah, yeah, the journey to who freakin knows, hopefully not rock bottom.
Speaker 1:No, but if you are at rock bottom, there's only one way yet, according to dr Nicola para well, there are shovels, you can dig deeper, but and that's my friend Kimberly, yeah, well, all right this has been fun.
Speaker 2:This has been real. This hasn't been real fun. Have you heard that before?
Speaker 1:I have heard that before. Yes, I have heard that before. I was like, no, don't keep going with that. No, she's gonna go all the way.
Speaker 2:No, I went all the way.
Speaker 1:She went all the way. She went all the way, so please like and Rate and subscribe to our podcast. I am not okay, kay. We'll be releasing weekly episodes. My name again is Kelly and I've had a blast with y'all today and I'm Kimberly and I'm still at a four. She's still at a four. Oh, have a good one and remember to try and be okay, okay, okay.